Tigers on the Fly!

[Natebg1]

Hello Fellow Musky Anglers!

So figured I would get some chatter going about fishing for Tigers on the Fly! Finally after doing enough research and talking to a few buddies of mine back in the Mid-West I dove in and got myself an 8 Weight 9 Ft 4 piece Fly rod with a Cabelas 8 Weight Fly Reel and Scientific Angler 8 Weight Floating Pike Master Series Line. I then made sure to go with the Pike/Musky/Barracuda Fly Leader with a sinking Fly of Choice. I decided to start out by getting a few different streamers and bunny fly's and then came up with some ideas and began making my own fly's which has been an absolute blast!!!

What has been even more of a treat was that I was able to get out and use them today with my Little Man and we were actually able to get a few Tigers to Follow them all the way to the boat. (Just as a side note, the Ready 2 Fish Fly Rod and Reel combo kits are great starters for kids) My Son loves his and feels like He is on top of the world when using it! I can't wait to get that first picture of him when He does lock into that first one on the Fly!

In regards to the follows we had, they both looked to be in the range of about 36 to 38 inches, and they were both Toads! What an experience to get these Tigers to at least follow a homemade Fly. Sure would have been nice to actually get one or both of them to open there jaws and clamp down, but I guess that is how Musky fishing goes! Overall, it was great to get out of the house and do something like this with my Little Man for the first time together. I am sure we will both look back at this experience and remember where it all started and where the passion kicked into full gear for Musky on the Fly! Good Luck out on the water and Tight Lines All!!!

Nate

[natetreat]

Holy craleedo! And I thought my big purple buntruders were big! Throwing those bigguns must give you a shoulder workout! I'm not familiar with with musky fly fishing, are you throwing a sink tip along with those guys?

[AJ's Dad]

Those things certainly look like a mouth full. How long are they?
I would love to see one of them stuck in the corner of a pikes mouth.

[muskyhunter]

Nate,
I thought I saw you out there whipping that rod around yesterday. If your using an 8 wt rod you might wanna go to a 10..everyone else is using that wt rod. Even guys that fish true muskies back in the midwest are doing it with heavier rods. And please, please do it right. I really don't want to see any dead muskies from being played out or from the fisherman being spooled twice or inexperience. Not doing the fish any good if a guy is out there for just the thrill. Do your homework,practice and know what you are doing okay? That is all I'm asking. Good luck in your endeavor with this fad.

[Anglinarcher]

8 weight will be fine, just use a heavy enough leader and set the drag heavy enough. The 10 weight is for casting the heavy flies better. I have caught several 40+/- Tigers and loads of Tarpon on similar equipment to yours.

I use an 8 weight Switch Rod, the power to cast the monster flies like a normal 10 weight and the distance to compete with my lure chunking.

I don't get out with my flies often enough for the Tigers, but I think you will have lots of fun when you hook up.

[kevinb]

Good for you getting out there and giving it a whirl. I don't know jack about fly fishing but it seems in recent weeks a select few have been playing muskies out a bit and several have died. Good luck out there and enjoy!

[Anglinarcher]

Most likely bass guys without a proper net. Trying to "lip" all those teeth will put the fear of ........... in you.

[Natebg1]

Holy craleedo! And I thought my big purple buntruders were big! Throwing those bigguns must give you a shoulder workout! I'm not familiar with with musky fly fishing, are you throwing a sink tip along with those guys?

Hey Nate,

For this trip I chose not to go with a sink tip and just used the weight of the flys with a leader behind it to get down in the water column which worked great in some areas. In other places it would have been better to have the sink tip. I did however have a second reel that I had strung up with 8 weight sinking line, I just chose not to break it out and use it. Maybe next time I will. Yesterday was more of a test run to just get the technique and practice down. I will definitely give the sink tip a try on the next trip which should be very soon! I will post further details on how it goes.

Nate

[edw]

I have used an 8 wt rod in the past but for Muskies it is generally too light. If you intend to make a habit of fly fishing for Muskies, like I do, a ten or a 11wt rod works perfect. In order to get bigger fish interested and actually strike you need to throw 12" to 14" flies. An 8 wt wont do that.

As far as what Todd said about stressing the fish too much, its true. A light rod of course cant play a fish to the boat in a reasonable amount time. Ten and 11wt rods can. Besides if you are fishing Tapps or Mayfield this time of year a strong rod is necessary to keep fish from diving into the weeds. If you are fishing Merwin, the same applies but the trees can be your foe.

Along with having the proper rod, line and leader, de-barbing your flies is just about a must in my book. Big flies are expensive and trying to wrestle your fly out of a thousand teeth and a tight jaw can make your fly look unrecognizable by the time you get it back. But the most important reason to lose the barb is to get the Musky released quickly. I wish the hardware chuckers would follow suit.

Ed

[Natebg1]

Thanks Ed,

I appreciate the information, I will certainly see about finding a decent priced 10 weight at some point in the future. If I have learned one thing about getting into Fly Fishing, it is certainly not a cheap start up cost. The plus side however is that once you make the initial investment in the necessary gear you will likely never have to again.

The reason I chose the 8 weight was for a more well rounded Fly Fishing experience! I can use my 8 weight for Muskie, Pike, Steelhead, jumbo Trout, Salmon and Bass. I enjoy fishing for Muskies in general, however I just thought for overall cost and ability to use my set up for many species that it fit the bill. Can't wait to get that first fish on the end of my Fly Line so that I can get a real feel for what I am in for! Oh and don't worry I will do my best to take every precaution possible if I get a good size Tiger on not to let him run too long. Last thing I would ever want to do is harm one of these amazing fish!

I would really enjoy getting out and learning a few things from you sometime and getting a better understanding of catching Tigers on the Fly. I would cover costs, give me a shout sometime on PM and maybe if you have time we can get out and you can show me the ropes. Tight Lines!

Nate

[Anglinarcher]

Just remember Nate, a fly rod is just a tool. The 8 weight with a 50 lb florocarbon or hard mono leader, with a 100# fluorocarbon shock tippet, or a steel tippet, will get any 50" out or weeds or trees.

A 10 or 12 can toss larger flies, and that is good, but the same leader is advisable.

Contrary to what the non fly fishermen THINK, 8 weights have been doing the job for over a 100 years.

[Natebg1]

Just remember Nate, a fly rod is just a tool. The 8 weight with a 50 lb florocarbon or hard mono leader, with a 100# fluorocarbon shock tippet, or a steel tippet, will get any 50" out or weeds or trees.

A 10 or 12 can toss larger flies, and that is good, but the same leader is advisable.

Contrary to what the non fly fishermen THINK, 8 weights have been doing the job for over a 100 years.

Thanks Anglingarcher,

Speaking to some of my buddies back in the Midwest and getting some advice from a local shop back in my hometown they were saying pretty much the same thing. They said a 10 weight wouldn't hurt but an 8 weight can do the job and be just as affective. I have done a ton of research and between guys like Barry Reynolds, Larry Dahlberg, and the guys from Zero 2 Hero they all have no issues with starting out with an 8 weight for a beginner. They all mentioned that the 8 weight was actually a great tool to learn on and to get more proficient with fly fishing before stepping up to the 10 and 12 weights. Eventually I will step up to the next level, for now I am just worried about getting that first one on the end of my line! Thanks again for all the great information it really is educational for me! If you are ever up for teaching some tricks to a new fly fisherman let me know, I am all ears and would really enjoy learning from a seasoned fly angler! Tight Lines!

Nate

[Mark K]

I admittedly know nothing about fly fishing, but I am curious about something. We are near peak water temps for the summer. Most, especially in the mid west quit muskie fishing all together, or head north for a few weeks when the water is near 80. I don't know your temps over there, but is an 8 weight enough to get the jobs done effeciently and quick enough to get these warm stressed fish back quick enough? Is an 8 weight a good starter but better to use in the spring/fall when temps are cooler? IMO it doesn't matter what gear is used, it should be shut down @ 80 degrees. Is an 8 weight too light at 75 degrees? 70? When are they using what over there mid summer?

[muskyhunter]

All I know is that I know one guy...ONE..that knows what he is doing fishing for muskies here. Now I have had a few guys in my boat new to chucking for them but have gone back to Wisconsin and he is part of a group of like 7 guys back there that fish for muskies on a pretty well known river around the Hayward area. And this guy is freeking GOOD!! They all use 10 wt rods..period. And also fishes for Tarpon off Key West with a 10 wt rod. Whether its an 8 wt or 11 wt make sure you use the proper equipment. You may wanna start off on the cheap but why? If your going to follow a leader you may as well do it the right way. I remember when I helped start 57. All the newbies that NEVER fished muskies before here went out and bought and used the proper gear. Nate, if this was something you were intending on doing then maybe you could have asked say..Ed 1st. Rather than in the hindsight fashion way you seem to be doing it now. I know you throw guys names out there like Dahlberg and Mania but they don't fish the tigers like Ed does. Idk how much info Ed would give you but go for it and pick his brain. Just do not fish "his" lake with out a pass.My advice, I guess is that since your trying to get the "feel" for it please don't go out there unexperienced and kill a tiger. Maybe Ed will show you the ropes..idk.
In all my years I have not ever accidently killed a single musky. With a barb not pinched. And just for the record I probably never will pinch a barb. I've been doing this a long time. I'll cut a hook before I loose a fish. I fish muskies the regular way chucking baits. After seeing you fly rodders using so much body english that hurts my shoulders and back more than bulldawgs and big bucktails any day. Isn't a 12 inch hairy wad with a hook in it the same weight as a 2 oz bait anyway but with a whippy'er stick? So I seriously doubt I'll be picking up a 10 wt fly rod for muskies anytime soon.
And Mark..80 degrees is a good limit to stop musky hunting. Tapps water temp hit 78 Wednesday and I pulled the plug for muskies. The smallies were up hitting everything and the muskies relocated to cooler water or buried themselves in the weeds.
Thanks, Todd

[AJ's Dad]

It sounds like Nate has done some homework on this subject and bought what he feels is the proper setup.

"Not doing the fish any good if a guy is out there for just the thrill?" Isn't that why people fish for Tigers, for the thrill?

I can assure everyone that nobody cares more about preserving the well being of these fish more that Nate does. He started this thread saying he wanted to get some chatter going on the subject. Looks like he accomplished that.

I am certainly no musky expert, but the last I heard there were no restrictions on what size rod a guy can use to catch tigers, and last I heard, a guy didn't need a pass from anyone to fish a certain lake. Unless of course your speaking about a private lake.

Nate,
I say, you have done some homework, bought the gear, asked for comments, and responded very graciously. Now take your stuff and go have some fun catching a fish.

Good luck, and when the water cools down over hear, you'll have to bring that stuff and try it on the pike.

[Mark K]

I wasn't asking the question to be rude or try to tell anybody they have the wrong set up. Like I said, I know nothing about fly fishing. If they say an 8 is enough then an 8 is enough. All I wanted to know is do you need to change depending on season? It is very well documented everywhere that near 80 is getting too warm so if you are going to fish you don't want to play a fish out for too long during this period. I do know a few tigers were found floating over there a few weeks ago. I have no idea why they died, but if there is anything anyone can do to preserve these sterile fish it should start with us. Yes, the thrill is great. But it would be great if everyone could continue to experience that thrill. I netted a 48.5" tiger last August and with heavy casting gear, the fight only lasted 2 minutes tops. We went to release her and it took 15+ minutes to get her to swim away. And slow at that. These fish are not as strong as they look this time of year.

Good luck out there Nate, I've heard tossing flys for Tigers is a ton of fun. I wanted to try it out with the Pike on the river a few years ago but never did. I wish I would have.

[Anglinarcher]

Here is what I see, and I ask in advance for those I offend to forgive me.

Let me start from the beginning. Most of you guys do not know me, and I don't belong to the club. I see no reason to fall into the group think and I don't care about a bunch of self taught newbies telling me what I should think. I am not spring chicken and I have been around a lot. And yes, even those of you that are catching them on a regular basis are still newbies considering the short time they have been in this state.

For me, Tiger Muskies are a compromise. They grow slower then a Pike when they are young, up to about 20", but faster then a Muskie until they get to about 40", then they slow down to a slower growth then the Muskie. You will get very few Tigers over 50 inches, which, I believe the lack of a current state record over 50", would demonstrate. After learning my Muskie and Pike craft many years ago in Minnesota, further refining my methods for Pike on the front range in Colorado, I have had many of these toothy critters in the net. I have landed them on Bass Tackle, the Cue Sticks we called Muskie Rods (still have two of them), and yes, fly rods. Tigers are an awesome fish, but the only real advantage they have is that they cannot reproduce so they are allowed in Washington and similar thinking States.

Next, I see a lot of reference to 12 to 14 inch lures. That is mostly a demonstration of foolish statements and bravado. Sure, you can and will catch Tigers on lures and flies that size, but 95% of Muskies and Tigers are and will always be caught on lures less then 10" in length. Still, flies 8 or 10 inches long are not easy to make or cast, which is why guys like Larry Dahlberg created the "big fly fibers" used on the Dahlberg Mega-Diver. For salt water, the Enrico Fibers and similar are another example. These fibers allow a very large fly (yes 12" is very workable), with excellent profile, with little weight. NO, they do not weight 2 ounces. I remember Low tech Joe posting a fly he made several years ago on WL, a perch pattern, that was made with similar fibers. I use the ER fibers a lot, using tandem articulated hooks, to get the length, gap, and profile I want.

OK, 80 degree water is tough on Tigers, but most of the time it is not the temperatures that get the Tigers. In my youth, you were a NON-fisherman if you tried to land a Muskie with anything other then a cradle; try doing that by yourself. Today a lot of guys try using a Boga Grip. OK, I have one that I used until I learned better. They control the fish but Tigers and Muskie have a jaw joint that can be damaged with the incorrect use of a Boga Grip or similar tool. Now, oversized nets are available that do a great job of landing the large fish, and that is what I suggest for the bigger fish and for all newbies. I prefer to use a non-slip tooth proof fishing glove to land my fish. I grab the fish behind the gills from the back. It is less invasive to the fish, but it is an expert technique and I do not advise amateurs to do it on fish over about 36". Here is the crux of the matter, it does not matter if you use a fly rod or a cue stick to catch muskies; if you have to overplay it to get final control over it, the fish is in trouble. I would rather see a fly rod and a large net used then Bass Tackle or a cue stick and no net.

I already mentioned that a lot of the dead fish you see are probably the result of Bass Fishermen getting a fish they do not have proper landing gear to get. You cannot blame the Bass Fishermen, it is not their fault. I suspect a fair amount of the fish have a big old Bass Crankbait in their gut because the Tiger cut the line. Sucks to be a Tiger, but again, you cannot blame the Bass Fisherman, or force the Bass Fisherman to use steel leader that kills his lure action. Another loss of fish is from vindictive fisherman that catch them while after other fish and consider them a trash fish that is eating their fish. I hear stories all of the time around Newman and Silver Lake about people gilling the Tigers and releasing them and letting them die. I hear complaints all the time that F&W does not plant trout in Newman and Silver in Spokane anymore because of the Tigers. I believe that they are not planted because the lakes are not managed for trout now, but for Spinny Rays, but tell the old timers that remember the trout and convince them. Trout are king in Washington, and Tigers eat Trout, so you will always have a number of Haters that want every Tiger dead. Deal with it boys, it is not going to change in the near future.

Last item, an 8 weight fly rod has as much fish controlling power as many heavy Bass rods. Yes, the tips are softer, the actions slower, but the butt sections combined with the extra length provide a lot of fish controlling power. As I mentioned, the real advantage of a heavier rod, like a 10 or 12 weight, is the ability to cast larger flies easier, and farther. But, technology is always advancing. I have what is rated as an 8 weight Switch Rod, 12' long, that tosses what could be called a 10 weight line, but in a different design. By using my Switch, with a Lee Woolf Ambush 8 weight, I can cast a 10" bunny leach or ER fiber fly as far as most hardware guys can. I can also use a shooting head, with a MOW type tippet, and get that fly out and down. The power of that rod will almost pull a stuck truck out of the mud.

Far too many people think of trout rods when they think of fly rods. It just is not fair to think that way.

Nevertheless, there will always be the self proclaimed experts on the web that will condemn someone for using something that they would not use. I have a proposal, let's just not use hooks at all. That way we can save every fish we claim we catch, it will just be "long range catch and release". LOL

Edit note, I should mentioned that in the hands of an expert fly fisherman, it takes little effort to cast. Many fly fishermen would benefit from watching an instructional video or getting lessons. I admit, if I get rusty it takes a bit to get my timing back, but at the end of a day fly fishing, verses lure chunking, I feel no different.

PS, I am a multi species fishing fanatic. I just cannot seem to fish just one species with one method. My wife would prefer that I have less tackle, less goal to catch every fish, less time spent on fishing every water. Oh well.

[AJ's Dad]

archer,
Now that sounds like a well informed, educated reply.

[Natebg1]

Hey Anglinarcher and AJ's Dad,

I can certainly say that the majority of the research I have done leaves me with no doubt that I made a very smart and informative decision and will be one that I will be happy with for a long time to come. I remember growing up fishing in the Mid-West before Musky rods started to make the HUGE leap that they have over the years. Perfect example would be how Loui Spray caught his World Record Muskie from the Chippewa Flowage in Hayward Wisconsin back in 1949. I can definitely say for certain it wasn't a broom stick at least not a G-Loomis, Lamiglass or St. Croix like we use today for these amazing beasts.

I have been to the Freshwater Fishing Hall of Fame numerous times in Hayward, Wisconsin and have read the story over and over of Louis Spray's World Record Muskie and also learned about fishing back in that time. Let's just say that technology has made leaps and bounds from those days and what we use today is more than enough. Even a Bass rod and reel can do the job it is just a matter of the line, leader, drag on the reel as well as the experience of the angler. As a matter of fact the story goes that Loui Spray fought his 63 ½ inch Musky which weighed 69 lbs., 11 oz for over 40 minutes. Being this said most Muskie fights on any rod and reel might be lucky if they last more than 10 minutes no matter if it is an ultra light or a broomstick. I have seen Muskie's caught on both and not necessarily on purpose.

At the end of the day, the main goal is to have FUN, teach the kids to keep the angling traditions alive and learn the important aspect of both proper angling technique and understanding all areas of fishing. I would much rather be diverse and understand both sides of the angling world from Fly Fishing to Regular Rod and Reel fishing so that one day when I do retire I can teach others such as my own kids and my future grandkids like my Grandparents did for me. What's even better is that I am going to get the chance to give back to my Grandfather and Grandmother who taught me how to fish by teaching them about Fly Fishing. They never got into it because of having so much fun teaching myself and all my cousins on the good "Ole Chip" about fishing with a rod and reel. Now my cousin and I both are going to get to set up a trip hopefully sometime in the near future to Montana and get at least my Grandfather to come along and do something he never did while we were growing up. Now that is what I say fishing is all about!!!

For those wanting to go back and forth about trying to say what I may have done wrong or not researched enough about Fly Fishing I am fine with it. I understand every decision I make may not be perfect, but that is also why I have reached the level I have in my life. I just want to go out and fish with those that want to do the same, and have a good time while getting some lasting memories to look back on and laugh and joke about. If that ain't what fishing is all about then I would rather stay right where I am at and be satisfied with what I am doing! Tight Lines All, look forward to seeing you out on the water!

Nate

[Anglinarcher]

Well said Nate.