Proposed Lead Ban by WDFW

[Mike Carey]

As usual, your arguments are concise and well thought out.

I wonder what the comparison is between the impact on the general environment between lead vs. steel production? Maybe too difficult to even figure out on something like fishing weights.

I also would like to see more definitive numbers on what the actual impact is on the bird life. Most human activity can have adverse impact on wildlife, so it is reasonable to argue that cost to the consumer is a fair thing to consider in the banning equation.

Plus, since lead is inert to the fish, your last statement is kind of misleading as it implies the need to improve fish habitat for our consumption issues, which isn't what this proposed ban is even about, correct?

[Gisteppo]

Plus, since lead is inert to the fish, your last statement is kind of misleading as it implies the need to improve fish habitat for our consumption issues, which isn't what this proposed ban is even about, correct?

Here's where the issue happens. The fish have shown a propensity to harbor heavy metals in their fats. Lead, over time, can leach (though we are talking long spans of time here), but that is beside the issue. The point wasn't clearly made on my part. We don't see high volume lead leech turning into measurable lead solutions in water. It is the happenstance of lead used in fishing gear that we see going into our food chain.

Say your friend Mr Bass hits a leadhead jig. He knows to run down to the rocks and break you off. Poof, now you have a bass with a small leadhead attached to him for the roughly 2-6 weeks it takes for a steel hook to rot apart and free him. He will ingest lead for that period of time via the skin lesion as well as material that is worn away when he rubs it on objects or against his food sources. Thus, albeit on a small scale, they do have ways to ingest lead, even in what we consider to be inert metals.

I suppose it is moot, but to me the amount of cost difference to reduce the level of lead in the system is a small price to pay. We talk about this in the case of the critters, but we shouldn't forget our own individual handling of lead repeatedly throughout the day. Humans have an amazing ability to absorb things through the skin, digestively, etc etc. Using non-lead materials reduces the amount of lead we absorb during our fishing day, which to me makes some sense.

To be fair, I still have lead and would continue to buy it in some cases. Its impossible to find other options here in Spokane.

E

[gpc]

Whilst Im enjoying this little slapfight over whether lead is or is not toxic ( as an ingested item, yes. As a transmission up the food chain, yes. In a non-oxidized state away from air, no) the grander issue is the outcome.

If there is a known toxicity to a rare bird, its seeming simple to me, eliminate it from the area. Comparing all of the other weights available, lead has only two main factors: malleability and cost.

Steel can be malleable, it just requires more heat. Anyone serious about making their own goodies can use steel, you just need to up your foundry temps.

Steel is garbage for fishing, and is a terrible substitute for lead. And it will rust, I know that cant be good for the environment. I think lead is too expensive, so tungsten is WAY out of my price range. I can buy lead ingots for 3.99 per lb, and get a bunch of free lead off demo jobs, I then am able to make my own weights.

We use steel hooks so they will eventually rot out of saltwater fish's faces when we cut them off. Steel oxidizing in the water is actually a natural process, rendering the metal, and the oxide, inert. To have steel decay in water poses no water concern whatsoever.

So in essence the only complaint that anyone really can stand on is price.

Let's add up every weight you have in your tackle box. You might increase your tackle costs $50 in the price gap from lead to steel or lead to silicon. Tungsten is a pricey metal to throw in the water, but it is amazingly dense and effective for certain rigs.

Small price to pay for improving the habitat from which we harvest our fish.

E

OK than that makes sence I never thought about the hooks that rust out thing. I was just caught up in the tetnes shots I have to get when I do get a rusty nail in my foot. Its not the $50 more I will be spending on non lead weights its the 100s of $ I already have invested into pouring my own lead. I did some research and found that only a few materials can be melted down with the equipment I allready own. Bismuth, tin, pewter and lead. The cheapest one (tin) is still 3x the price of lead per lb. The heaviest (bismuth) is about 20% lighter than lead, but is the material I am leaning towards. Tungsten is almost 2x as heavy as lead, and about 4x the price "in the raw" but the melting point is 6,192 degrese about 10x that of lead.

Either way, Agreed, small price to pay for the environment

[Gisteppo]

GPC, are your molds made of steel?

One can do a sand-casting setup that will accommodate most metals using your current mold set. Just pour up some of your goodies, make sand casts (or consider the lost-mold technique), and you can use at least the molds as a new product.

Occasionally furnaces are available on craigslist capable of other metals.

Agreed, its definitely a hassle.

And on our friend, the tetanus shot:

http://www.medicinenet.com/tetanus/article.htm

E

[G-Man]

I'd be all for a ban as long as it involves banning lead, heavy metals, pesticides, fertilizers and pharmaceutical releases into the environment as well. Politicians tend to single out the lowest quantity generator of any type of pollution and put the squeeze on them. The amount of lead and other toxic materials that fisherfolk put into the environment pales in comparison to what municipalities and large manufacturing companies spew forth on a daily basis. Again, I'm not against a ban but lets keep things in perspective, the wildlife in question didn't get to its current threatened/endangered condition because of people using lead while fishing and hunting. Also, if we are going to ban lead for fishing, make damn sure it applies to all folks who fish. Include commercial fishermen and Native Americans in the ban and I bet you'll see some major backlash.

[Gisteppo]

I'd be all for a ban as long as it involves banning lead, heavy metals, pesticides, fertilizers and pharmaceutical releases into the environment as well.

lead - banned in industrial usage in watersheds

heavy metals - many used in mining, banned in watersheds

pesticides - DDT banned, 1970's

fertilizers - recently banned in Spokane county, to include phosphorus based detergents as well

pharma is the last in the chain to get regulated. Too bad their lobby is so much bigger

[YellowBear]

With the diet of the Loon being,
Medium sized fish,
Crustaceans,
Amphibians,
Mollusks and sometimes Aquatic plants.
How would a Loon ingest something like a lead sinker?
If they were a bottom feeder rooting through the mud I could understand.
To compare bird shot with sinkers doesn't work for me.
If you loaded your own shells with sinkers insted of shot, I may change my mind.

[Nik]

With the diet of the Loon being,
Medium sized fish,
Crustaceans,
Amphibians,
Mollusks and sometimes Aquatic plants.
How would a Loon ingest something like a lead sinker?
If they were a bottom feeder rooting through the mud I could understand.
To compare bird shot with sinkers doesn't work for me.
If you loaded your own shells with sinkers insted of shot, I may change my mind.

because aquatic birds such as loons are known to swallow small pebbles to aid in breaking down food in their digestive systems. guess where they get those small pebbles...yeah, at the bottom of lakes in shallow areas, right where your lead shot or broken off lead sinkers are going to be sitting. obviously shot is the bigger offender here, but sinkers are an offender nonetheless.

[G-Man]

Keep in mind that there are no true bans on discharge of materials for industrial use, only limits. For example, going into effect next year are "newer limits" on heavy metals and other pollutant discharges in industrial stormwater. Stormwater finds it's way into all bodies of water and aquifers and large companies always seem to get exemptions given to them if they can't quite meet State or Federal requirements. How about a ban on cars that leak oil onto the street or dairy farms next to rivers, lakes or streams? It's far more easy for a politician to pump up his resume by getting a law passed that doesn't infringe too heavily upon big business.

[bionic_one]

This is still only a proposal for 13 lakes... Not a statewide ban.

[Amx]

And there is NO WAY that they will STOP at 13 lakes, they want to eliminate ALL lead use, and sooner or later ALL FISHING ANYWHERE AND EVERYWHERE. Stinking peta people.

[gpc]

GPC, are your molds made of steel?

One can do a sand-casting setup that will accommodate most metals using your current mold set. Just pour up some of your goodies, make sand casts (or consider the lost-mold technique), and you can use at least the molds as a new product.

Occasionally furnaces are available on craigslist capable of other metals.

Agreed, its definitely a hassle.

And on our friend, the tetanus shot:

http://www.medicinenet.com/tetanus/article.htm

E

No my molds are made from aluminum. Its not the molds that I am worried about its my cauldron or melting pot that is only capable of 750 degrees

[G-Man]

gpc, you can purchase bismuth alloys for casting your weights. Example website: http://www.huntersbismuth.com/home.html It melts somewhere between 240 and 500 degrees depending on the tin content. They are not quite as dense as lead but are better than steel and much, much easier to work with. We use several kinds of no-lead alloys at work, but they don't have near the density that a bismuth alloy has. I've been on the lookout for tungsten steel balls in 1/4" diameter for quite some time so that I can use them to make slinkies for drifting the rivers. If anyone has a lead on these let me know as all I have found is #2 size shot or smaller, which are not worth the effort.

[fishermen]

There was not enough evidence that fishing sinkers were the cause in the case of the Loon.

[Bigbass Dez]

I have voiced my concerns with the proper department ! And if you are an angler that feels like using lead is not the reason behind the Bird Kill i would encourage you to do the same . Shoot me a p.m. if you need the contact

[fishermen]

I have voiced my opinion to WDFW. I have been following this issue in other states as well. Basstimes had a good article about it.

[YellowBear]

AMX
I have to agree with you 100 %.

[Nik]

And there is NO WAY that they will STOP at 13 lakes, they want to eliminate ALL lead use, and sooner or later ALL FISHING ANYWHERE AND EVERYWHERE. Stinking peta people.

you know you're being just as irrational and overreactionary as the worst PETA supporter right? it's a proposed ban on lead sinkers. get some perspective for crying out loud. those 13 lakes were likely chosen because they have large seasonal loon populations. in other words, they're trying to be as unobtrusive to recreational fishermen as possible. yet you still completely freak out and make a rediculously irrational statement like that.

to sum it up, someone is saying "Hey, if a bird were to eat a lead sinker, which they have known to do, it will kill it. We would like you to stop using lead in a few lakes out of the 1000s in Washington that have lots of loons, so there's not a chance of a loon eating your broke off sinker and dying".

and you are saying "HOW DARE YOU! Next thing you're going to tell me that I can never fish ever again anywhere!"

if that's not irrational i don't know what is.

[Amx]

And there is NO WAY that they will STOP at 13 lakes, they want to eliminate ALL lead use, and sooner or later ALL FISHING ANYWHERE AND EVERYWHERE. Stinking peta people.

you know you're being just as irrational and overreactionary as the worst PETA supporter right? it's a proposed ban on lead sinkers. get some perspective for crying out loud. those 13 lakes were likely chosen because they have large seasonal loon populations. in other words, they're trying to be as unobtrusive to recreational fishermen as possible. yet you still completely freak out and make a rediculously irrational statement like that.

to sum it up, someone is saying "Hey, if a bird were to eat a lead sinker, which they have known to do, it will kill it. We would like you to stop using lead in a few lakes out of the 1000s in Washington that have lots of loons, so there's not a chance of a loon eating your broke off sinker and dying".

and you are saying "HOW DARE YOU! Next thing you're going to tell me that I can never fish ever again anywhere!"

if that's not irrational i don't know what is.

Been done before, one item at a time, then the whole thing is changed. Read history or it'll happen again, even about the lead ban.

[Bodofish]

I'm all about civil liberties and keeping all constitutional rights. You know like prying my gun from my dead cold fingers. Controling polutants in our enviornment is something we can all live with. Not using lead weights is an easy measure. I even go so far as to collect used bullets after a little target shooting. Recycling is good. It's kind of like switching to unleaded gas. I'm sure a lot of you pups don't even know about leaded gas. We all lived and we all still drive our cars. I'm sure we all breath alot easier because of it.