New project for the salt

[Gisteppo]

No idea on swede's stuff, I didn't touch this thread. He definitely has his thoughts on boats, and I was hoping for some rigging input based on salmon trolling and hallies offshore, but he is vamos.

The cabin will be somewhere between the two below. Keep in mind its not going to be enclosed, just look at the forward cuddy part of the cabin. A windshield will be placed on top of it, and possibly a top above everything, but thats still undecided.





I want as much fishing deck as I can get so 4 hallie or ling lines can stretch out with TONS of fighting room for multiple hookups. This should also work out well for running salmon lines in a bigger spread and possibly being able to keep more gear in the water while fishing.

E

[Bodofish]

If you're planning to take that boat out in the ocean, don't under estimate the house needed. It can make for a very long day or retreat if the weather kicks up. If it's just plain raining it really nice to be able to get out of it, with an IO, you'll be able to put in a heater that runs off it. Maximum deck space is over rated when sacrificing the cabin, especially when you'll be coming a great distance to hit the salt. The pictures below are of the Sally Anne, the first and original pirate ship and fish slayer. Between my brother and I, we put very large fish numbers (AKA Pirate Ship) in the boat for the 18 years we ran her. The numbers of fish that were lost at the boat were insignificant and normally do to kids and wives driving the rods. As you can see she was completely covered. On a few occasions it would have been nice to have some open deck but there was a big swim step for gaffing large butts and an appropriate sized net for salmon made it a snap! I can't tell you how nice it is when you don't have to put the Helly's on.

[fishing collector]

Gisteppo...That is going to be quite the boat.... I have been an engineer on boats for 25 years and I understand what you are saying about the speed you might expect from this boat. I think you may be over doing the speed thing though. From the looks of the finished boats i would think that 15k is about the average safe speed in the salt for it. You will eat up fuel at higher speeds. I know that the most economic speed for the Bartender 26 was about 20k @ 1/2 throttle even with the 351 small block in it with the jet. We very rarely went full speed after dad paid for the first full tank of fuel..LOL Hope your boat has scuppers big enough to get rid of all that gets in. :-) Some of the boats for sale nowadays are missing the craftsmanship that you will have in this little sweetheart. The aluminum fish boats and the glass boats. Then the customs whether it is wood or aluminum, all have a little heart and soul.....It's the soul that makes them what they are. I know how much went in to our wooden boat and how much went into Swede's Warrior...(you gotta see that boat) and your new project. Glad to see that it is going to be given that soul...Good luck on your project. BTW Thanks for the kind words about the Bartender. Did you know Dan? Looking forward to seeing it completed. Keep up the postings. Take care, Steve

[Gisteppo]

FC, didn't know him, but run in a few circles that have Bartender builder/owners. Grain o' Sand and Storm Crow were two exceptional cases of what can be done with a Bartender 26 sportfisher. Knowing the boats and what went into them, not to mention the condition yours remains in, is noteworthy to those of us who have a keen interest in boats with history.

I completely agree that 15 kts is probably going to be her most efficient speed. 17ish mph will be perfect for our runs, but having the flexibility to bomb out at 20+kts while consuming a bit more fuel for a short bite or running in ahead of schedule for a weather window will be nice. If you rode in the Bartender, they have very similar characteristics as planing goes, similar deadrise, etc, where the Clipper was a good bit leaner at the bow. A bit more pitching, but should get the job done in a pinch.


Bodo, I would like to see a couple more photos of that fish deck of yours. I am actually puttering around with templates right now trying to get the cabin sides shaped, and estimating windshield placement (came inside to get the camera, saw some posts here). Ill take some of this to heart, as I know it can be a long wet day on the coast in spring.

How did you like fighting fish through a hole in the canvas? Ive been in boats with canvas far aft for salmon and didn't like bumping the rod tips on the framing when trying to keep line tension through big swells. Made me a little leary, but apparently you had better luck? Id say the distance from your hard dodger to the transom is probably going to be similar to this boat's hard/soft top (whatever it gets) and I like the idea of pulling canvas to the transom like you have it. Little spendy, but looks like a winner. Tell me more about it with photos if you can.

Thanks!

E

[wolverine]

As far as cabin size goes just figure out how many people that you will normally fish. Make the house big enough that they can all get under cover and seated. You don't need laz-e-boy sized seats, jump seats are fine. Long runs in bad weather are tough on people if they are hanging on out in the weather.
If the cockpit deck isn't in yet you should put a camber in the new deck so water runs to the sides as well as to the rear. When you establish the floor height and scupper location make sure that they are high enough that the scuppers don't go under water if you get 2-3 people in 1 corner (netting fish, etc). Glass or epoxy coat both sides of the plywood floor as well as all edges.
Glass or epoxy all of the bilge areas and make sure that there are limber holes in the cross members so water can drain to the stern. Line the limber holes with pvc and epoxy them in. When boats rot its from the inside out.

[Mike Carey]

G - I love your passion man! As for me, I'm in a different space right now in my life, where family matters take my time and energies. Heck, I'm even finding it hard to go out fishing on a regular basis! Not to say never, but for me I think that sailboat was a once in a lifetime experience. Very happy I did it and proud of the accomplishment, but not so fired up that I'd do it again. But I totally understand your enthusiasm for this project. It's all about the journey and the destination is just part of the journey. Man, I remember working on my boat for a couple hours, losing myself in the project, cleaning up, and then spending 10 minutes just staring at what I was creating - is it like that for you? I'm guessing yes.

[Gisteppo]

W, I will definitely keep much of that in mind.

The plan was 2 forward, 2 sideways to consolidate space and allow drop canvas to keep the interior of the boat dry going in and out, and a decent barrier while fishing.

Sole is actually going to be a strange one. It will have slope naturally *forward* and I will slope a section aft as well, so that the water will actually drain from the scuppers just behind the seat boxes. This is a trait of the hull shape (narrow forward, little weight bearing) as most clippers had the sole slope to amidships. This should allow the water to run to the most advantageous place in the boat, where we won't have the transom dragging badly if we ship a wave, it should centralize itself until it drains.

Bilges are slated for tinted epoxy, 3 coats. Limber holes at the frames are already in place (between the stringers) so they will need epoxy brushed into the holes. A bit of a hassle, but only an afternoon of work to accomplish.

Sole will be either 3/8" mahogany or 1/2" fir coated both sides with biax fiberglass. I want it to never know its in water, and be as tough as possible.

Mike, its about as rewarding as it gets for inanimate objects. I can sit in the boat for hours thinking on the project, and at the end of the day sit in the shop and look it over, dry-sailing it out to faraway fishing holes. They say the best testament to a good boat is if you can't leave her on the hook or at the dock without looking over your shoulder one more time...

You should definitely at least build a little plywood rowboat or daysailer with the kids involved, like a 12' skiff or something. It'd be a great family project and the kids would find it very rewarding, I guarantee that.

-----------------------

Yesterday I began mocking up a cabin arrangement. Just quick eyeballing with lauan plywood ($10 sheets) clamped in place to get estimates on what I want to accomplish. Looks like this might need a little more length, as its a hair stubby to my eye, but its preserving a good deal of room to fish and giving decent headroom for the V berth.





The two sticks above are just for eyeballing the windshield height and location, so don't expect that to be what the finished product looks like.

Im always up for opinions and input, its helpful to have a group of people throwing ideas out.

E

[swedefish4life1]

Back to E and his PROJECT/Wood trunk not one word personal in fact I will help him as that is what I do!:-$


He sported some numbers which this tub will never see in miles per hour[-x , gas[-x and more why ((Design)):-$ the hull is a PLODDER:-$ not a performer:-$ and cannot ever be fact!:-$

Having less hp in a none planning hull that is too light requires more power and gas as soon as mother nature comes :thumright
bow sheer, winds , tides and more equal these facts not feel good stuff!!![-( [-x

This style of boat is nothing close to what Bodo fish posted it got hers by mass, weight, width and size/Volume and did nothing fast but it could play and perform in the ocean from sheer weight and mass and width!!! FACT!:-$ =d>

THIS BOAT IS TOO LIGHT FACT WEIGHT IS NEEDED more entry V and side Progressive V IN THE BIG BLUE AND BACK THAT WITH A NONE PLANNING HULL IT IS A SITTING FLOATING BOUNCING CORK! FACT

Will it make (tuna deaths waters) what year and date??? Time and month??? and anyone who tries is a deadman! on any given day fact!:-$

The reason it has a 140hp outdrive power supply simple the hull design can and will not use power with this hull desigh Period:-$

Halibut I would not ever as well unless there inside and 100 feet or less to find and catch!:-$ [-x

Width, sides, weight , hull designs and 20 more go into a great performing tub not words or just dreams Facts:-$


I have backed and helped from ground zero so many gear sets, electronics, hulls, cabins, HP, motors and more it hurts my dieing head what was my back ground besides KOing cupcakes,liers and cowards, dunking over taller, and hitting fastballs deep into the lights?:viking:

Who cares ???but lets base them on the facts composites, metals, cad system design,computer generated films, photo-processing and being a senoir focal to get it done under buget and better .:study: :thumright

Who designed there own tubs me and 10 other guys and number 11 who supported the most radical landing Craft with every process going baby swedeo:)

Hate is zero that stop the lies all thats shows is zero game and the 3inch rule8-[ I cannot support that Big men back Facts or face me in the killing fields of doing FISH/HUNTING or the dirt GLADIATOR STUFF$$$

I don't care I fear not one man bring a few friends Showtime is my time from doing not pounding a PC which now in fact is a real effort on any given day! lol

Now the tub what it will do and great???

Cruise, sight seeing, drinking wine, meals out with friends safe inland sounds, bigger lakes all these things it will do great=d> :thumright but this BOAT/TUB will never see 14mph[-x in any open ocean waters not due to hate and mens sewing clubs from doing nothing the facts will be design:thumright !!!! FACT!:-$

Fact!!!

I also will meet E given 2 weeks notice and bring a tub and show these facts real life and time but I will not batter BS on nothing backing design and facts not emotions, boys hate clubs and being wanted or loved

I already am by God my kid, Jenn. My great gun dog who just reached 18 years old copper top my 50 plus kids I help:thumright and 40 or so great buds:thumleft: from doing many hate the game why they cannot beat it or reach it without lies and words all facts!=d>

So God bless read the facts not mine I pressed this boat by the best=; the nation has period his words SPOT ON SWEDE o:) now lets find another guy who seeks performance fishing machine fishing death and waste little effort on these issues!



PS will E-make this old wood tub look sweet bank on that:thumright fact he does do 100 percent take pride in all he does that is a fact=d> I will not disput or buffer words with FACT!!!!


Tight Lines Fish ON! facts will see how long the tuth leaves this on the table or greases the facts in shame!!!

Chase your dreams, support kids, families and friends=d> and any cupcakes come 0ff the PC you will see me feel me and know the power of Swede Facts:viking: or take a ride Domination is just really simple not always the right choice for many Just DNA baby!!

Fish on!!!!:thumleft: o:)

[Gisteppo]

Having less hp in a none planning hull that is too light requires more power and gas as soon as mother nature comes
bow sheer, winds , tides and more equal these facts not feel good stuff!!!

This is a planing hull swede. All hulls that have dihedral shape, monohedral, warped plane, etc etc are all planing. Light boats produce more speed for a given hp regardless of weather conditions. Thats a root function of basic hydrodynamics, weight and speed are interrelated.

The reason it has a 140hp outdrive power supply simple the hull design can and will not use power with this hull desigh Period

140hp is the number that comes out of Savitsky's equations, as well as the Crouch formula for planing craft. These should be intensely familiar to you as thats what should have dictated the performance of your designs as well, since they are the industry standard. Im betting your boat with the Hamilton probably popped out a Crouch constant around 190 and should require around 220 hp for the hull shape, then add a little extra for chest pounding and running fast in flat water.



Thats the same boat, on a plane, nowhere near full throttle.

Width, sides, weight , hull designs and 20 more go into a great performing tub not words or just dreams Facts

Shes 8' 6" wide, sides are 33" tall and flared a full foot on each side (a seaworthy trait carried from the days of the oar powered Grand Banks dory fleet, of which she's an offspring). Weight once the tanks are all up will be creeping on 3000lbs, which means her displacement to length ratio will be lower than most boats out there today. Efficient, and more likely to roll AWAY from a breaking sea than a heavier boat which tends to stay stable and allow the wave in.

Cruise, sight seeing, drinking wine, meals out with friends safe inland sounds, bigger lakes all these things it will do great but this BOAT/TUB will never see 14mph

I absolutely can't wait to take you out for a cruise in this puny underpowered boat. Ill put any amount of cash on the table that she does 14mph. Any...

I also will meet E given 2 weeks notice and bring a tub and show these facts real life and time but I will not batter BS on nothing backing design and facts not emotions, boys hate clubs and being wanted or loved

Thats the whole point, I want to be able to buddy boat out with friends to fishing spots so we can all have a good time, not crowded onto one boat and getting in each others way, tangling, etc. Its a big ocean, with lots of fish, and we all have room to play!

No hate here Swede, even after that barrage. You are entitled to your opinion, my job is to prove you wrong and hopefully we both learn a little about boats in the process.

E

[swedefish4life1]

My tub does 51mph up river matched with a radial progressive radius stepped hull and Swedish Inmar hammerhead:-$ HO V-8= 425 ponies:-$ and she is not flat at the best just under 16 degrees and ever changing with helm electric trim tabs to punch the nose flat if needed.

The Hamai supports about 375 real used ponies due to mass waters and volumes but hold , real reverse packs the weight 2nd to none:-$

24x78 2nd to none:-$ in performing running all kinds of waters and sports fishing 360 percent of the tub the options are endless on how and why but for the salt only wll be pushing the Seasport away some and be supporting this within 10 days and she will run 45 miles a hour fish anywaters we press and will be 2 feet longer off a progressive 20 degree Vee
Sportsfishing Master Blaster and planning in Real open ocean and real waters is 28mph and up up and NOW!!!

Said my say= tell me where an when?:cheers:
Will compare all and have coffee and tea after on your tub:colors: :chef: :bounce:

Fish on!!!

Doing a complete computer switch over your all safe for a day or 2 on pictures!!!:-$ :chef: multi Core processsors, live videos and music , desigh, speed and power soon :colors:

Man hood#-o not the gig:-$ choices are for better, safer, faster state of the art 1 builds for a few not the masses!:chef: :bounce:

I said I suck around find china:-$ and cupcakes:-$ the fit never matches the hatch:cheers:

I clearly put in print your wood tub will be finished with pride now you just support a link, time and date for Neah bay and open ocean Real fishing real bad waters I embrace that and fear it not

Be the best E thats good enough your first POST WERE RUNNING IN THE 30'" MPH REMEMBER???? :@:

[Gisteppo]

I can't afford the many gallons of gas you will burn getting out to the grounds an hour sooner, so Ill be stuck plodding along at 15 mph (14 kts) burning a real-world 4 miles per gallon or better.

Im not nearly the man you are Swede, I can only be what I am.

E

[Gisteppo]

Be the best E thats good enough your first POST WERE RUNNING IN THE 30'" MPH REMEMBER????

Crouch's formula for planing speed is

Vk = C / SQRT(Disp/SHP)

Where:
Vk = Speed in knots
C = Constant based on the type of vessel
Disp = Displacements in pounds
SHP = Shaft Horsepower

(See Dave Gerr's Propeller Handbook, pages 15-17)

Dave gives the following constants

150 - average runabouts, cruisers, passenger vessels
190 - high speed runabouts, very light high-speed cruisers
210 - race boat types
220 - three-point hydroplanes, stepped hydroplanes
230 - racing power catamarans and sea sleds

Im estimating the following:

1600lbs hull, motor.
480 fuel
100 kicker
600 crew
100 fish
120 ground tackle/gear

3000lbs estimated

What we know:

C: 170, shes a shallow V with great parallel lines.
SHP: 140
Displacement: 3000lbs

Thus:

Vk = 150 / SQRT(3000/140)

Vk = 150 / 4.629

Vk = 32.4 kts

This is a rough estimate, and one should expect less speed, though I used the lowest constant. Even reducing the hp to 120 you still end up over 30 statute mph (30kts even).

E

[swedefish4life1]

E-printed words real life open oceans It will never see 30 mph in any waters like this not even half if your real lucky

This will be my last on this subject:cheers: :chef:

I will let the popcorn crowd have at this

Your printing all these numbers and you get Seasick in nothing waters :@: ??????

So that equals very little of doing or not able to cover your body in patches??? LOL

Weight
Hull Design
width side heights
Outdrive
outboards
HP
turbo diesel=Hp
Counter Roatation massive steel props 2= yours will not push that or support that:-$
Progressive Vee from front to back real weight needed to be blasted with and against mother natures shoulders#-o

Not Copy and paste:cheers: :colors:

Real ocean waters and what day it would take with these designs to even make them :colors:

Be safe be swell fish on!!!

[Gisteppo]

Yep I get seasick. Sucks for me doesn't it...

Lets talk about the history behind the hull, I think its the most beneficial for all that might read this.

The fishing fleet originally on the west coast was oar powered dories. They needed to be surf launched, and carry large amounts of fish because our ocean was very bountiful then. Thus came the original Pacific City dory:



Cousins to the Grand Banks, they needed to be more seaworthy than their predecessor because the seas off Grand Banks are open ocean, not breaking shore swell.

As motors got bigger and boats grew in capacity, they lost their pointed sterns (except the Bartender) and grew flat transoms for speed and weight bearing, evolving into the current PC dory shape:

Harvey Dory:



Learned Dory:



And the sistership to my boat, the Clippercraft surf dory:



These are 22' commercial dories, licensed to run salmon trolls and harvest high poundage of fish. Most are built of fir plywood, with frames of fir, fastened with stainless steel, and fiberglassed with heavy mat. The vast majority of these boats run 70hp, some of the oversized ones run 115hp.

Incredibly seaworthy boats, and able to launch into heavy surf:



The next logical step is to add a shallow V to improve her ride in a chop, as the big flat bottoms are a little harsh when seated and not loaded with hundreds of pounds of fish. This V required more horsepower to run, so instead of the 70 hp outboard, a 140 hp IO was selected. Light and efficient, the small 4 cylinders run about 150 lbs heavier than the same hp outboard, but put more of the weight where it is needed, inside the boat instead of hanging off the back. This also increased the height of the transom for protection from breaking waves.

Note the family resemblance to the above boats (with a more elegant sheer instead of just a quick point up at the bow):



Thats a VERY abbreviated version of the history of the PC dory, and the offspring build by Clippercraft. Some of the more seaworthy boats in the area, and produced locally in Oregon to boot.

These aren't my opinions, this is historical fact.

E

[wolverine]

Interesting read. I'm not a naval architect by any means, but over 22 years working for the worlds largest boat builder a few things stuck and stayed in my head. Clipper designs work really well in open swells, a bit bouncy in heavy chop, and can have a nasty snap to in a side chop. They were never designed to be speed merchants. They will plane relatively easy with minimal horsepower and are happiest and most comfortable at a slower planing speed. They definitely are a tough ride in a heavy chop at speed. Overpowering the hull will make for a fast boat on flat water. However the hull is a design that works in heavy swell. The boat can ride more comfortably in the slop if trim tabbed to force the bow down. Examples are Arimas and the old 80's Bayliner Explorers.

[Gisteppo]

Yeah, they are a shallow V, not meant to bomb through 3' wind chop at 40 mph, no question. The good part is they don't trip nearly as badly as the flat bottom boats.

She will be tabbed later in construction.

Wolverine, which plant did you work in? Buddy of mine was a grunt and his dad was one of the managers, both are from Burlington. Buddy is here as a fireman now, and his dad is running the plant at Nordic Tugs.

E

[Mike Carey]

That's an amazing surf picture. Makes me sick just looking at it!

G, my boys are 18 and (almost) 16. These days our quality time is spotting for the 18 y.o. in the weight room (will be playing college football this fall) or throwing BP in our backyard batting cage to the 16 y.o. (loves baseball). Neither of them showed much interested in boats or fishing. That's OK, I showed them the sport of fishing and they chose other interests, so I "match the hatch" and do what they like to do.

To me, this whole debate is over my head and I look at it from the aesthetics side of things. Each boat has it's purpose and joy and each boat will exceed in those goals I'm sure.

[stanford]

That's an amazing surf picture. Makes me sick just looking at it!

G, my boys are 18 and (almost) 16. These days our quality time is spotting for the 18 y.o. in the weight room (will be playing college football this fall) or throwing BP in our backyard batting cage to the 16 y.o. (loves baseball). Neither of them showed much interested in boats or fishing. That's OK, I showed them the sport of fishing and they chose other interests, so I "match the hatch" and do what they like to do.

To me, this whole debate is over my head and I look at it from the aesthetics side of things. Each boat has it's purpose and joy and each boat will exceed in those goals I'm sure.

Thats well said Mike!

Of all my family I am the one who is most interested in Fishing and boats. I have been a Sea Scout for a while and will continue helping my crew out. Boats and their speculations have always caught my eye, it's quite fascinating how boats are built and their structural durability in all conditions.

The boat looks awesome Gisteppo! Thats a nice trailer you have to, hopefully you won't have to many issues at the launch. But definitely a good find!

[Gisteppo]

I anticipate zero issues, shes gonna be BULLETPROOF when Im done...

E

[AdsBot [Google]]

Interesting read. I'm not a naval architect by any means, but over 22 years working for the worlds largest boat builder a few things stuck and stayed in my head. Clipper designs work really well in open swells, a bit bouncy in heavy chop, and can have a nasty snap to in a side chop. They were never designed to be speed merchants. They will plane relatively easy with minimal horsepower and are happiest and most comfortable at a slower planing speed. They definitely are a tough ride in a heavy chop at speed. Overpowering the hull will make for a fast boat on flat water. However the hull is a design that works in heavy swell. The boat can ride more comfortably in the slop if trim tabbed to force the bow down. Examples are Arimas and the old 80's Bayliner Explorers.

C-dory is another boat that is easy to get up on step but a bugger of a ride.