Minor Cycle Rule Proposals

[Don Wittenberger]

Gone Fishin -- The Pend O'Reilles River is within a bull trout recovery area, therefore WDFW needs to back up any regulatory changes with field data. Region 1 is establishing a process to assess the POR pike fishery. They plan to conduct a reservoir survey next year, and forage surveys in the next 3 years. With this data in hand, they'll be in a position to justify a pike management plan. Probably the best thing for us to do is stay in touch with regional staff working on this project to get progress reports and educate them about our strong interest in having a quality pike fishery in the POR. After discussing this issue with Steve Jackson at WDFW, I feel pretty good about our chances for POR being managed for "quality pike" in the long term. There are remnant populations of bull trout, west slope cutthroat trout, and mountain whitefish in the drainage that WDFW is interested in protecting, but the field studies probably will show that pike are no threat to these populations because of physical separation, and that there's ample food supply in the system for all of the resident species.

Because developing the management plan will take at least 3 years, there's still the question of what we can do in the meantime to preserve the quality of that fishery. The answer to that isn't easy. WDFW doesn't believe harvest is affecting the population, although Jackson acknowledged that the population of trophy specimens coveted by catch-and-release anglers may be somewhat vulnerable without a restrictive regulation. However, he questions whether a slot limit would be effective. I spent quite a bit of time discussing this issue with him, and my own feeling right now is:

1) Chapter 57 should get involved with the pike issue.
2) Trying to get a slot limit (or some other restrictive rule) in the next cycle probably won't succeed.
3) We should open a line of communication with Region 1 to stay on top of their study and to let them know we're really, really, really interested in having a quality pike fishery in the POR.

We all need to realize a couple of things. First, while the odds are very good that WDFW ultimately will manage POR pike as a sport fishery, they're adamantly opposed to pike spreading to any other Washington waters. They can't spread naturally, so that would happen only by anglers illegally planting them. This has been a rampant problem in Montana and Idaho. We need to cooperate with WDFW by accepting the fact POR is the only sport pike fishery Washington is going to have, and by getting the word out to anglers that "bucket biology" is a bad thing. Second, the POR pike won't be managed exactly the same as tiger muskies. Tiger muskies are managed as a trophy fishery with a very high keep limit requiring catch and release of 98% of the fish. WDFW's goal for POR pike will be a "quality sport fishery," which aims for a balanced population of various sizes. We may never see a slot limit or a ban on harvest of trophy fish. What we can do, though, is work with Region 1 and WDFW, and try to influence them in the direction we'd like things go. Instead of trying to throw regulation proposals into the hopper at the beginning of the process, only to have them ground up into compost, we should think about the regulations that could flow out of the back end of the study and planning process as the work product of that process. The chances of getting rules adopted go way, way up when it's done that way. So here's what we should do. We'll take action to get our own fishing club involved with POR pike, establish communication with the Region 1 staff working on pike, and try influence the management plan that grows out of the study process. If we can do that, the rest will take care of itself.

[bad esox]

Don,

While it recognized the the Northern Pike is a related species to the Muskellunge, especially the Tiger Muskellunge, let's review the Muskies Inc. "Mission Statement" and "Purpose" at this time.

Muskies Inc. Mission Statement: Muskies Inc. is an active, service-oriented, non-profit organization with the SINGLE focus of improving the sport of muskie fishing for men, women, and children.

Our MISSION is to unite all muskie fishing interests for the promotion and protection of a high quality muskellunge sport fishery in the United States and Canada.

We will accomplish this by supporting conservation practices and research based on sound scientific merit, and carried out by authorized federal or state agencies, appropriate academic institutions, Muskies Inc. chapters, and their members.

We are committed to the abatement of water pollution; maintenance of records for muskies habits, growth and range and the dissemination of muskies information to every one.

(Adopted April 2002).


This is the PURPOSE of Muskies Inc. (Closely related to our MISSION).

To promote a high quality Muskellunge sport fishery;

To support selected conservation practices based on merit and carried out by authorized federal and state agencies;

To establish hatcheries and rearing ponds and introduce the species into suitable waters;

To support the abatement of water pollution;

To maintain records of habits, growth and range of species;

To disseminate Muskellunge information;

To promote good fellowship and sportsmanship among men, women, and children.

WWW.muskiesinc.org

I would highly encourage any "individual" member, or non-member, to get involved with this cause if that is their passion.

Good ideas. Well written.

More research will have to be done.

[kevinb]

Thank you Don

I was hopeful that the chapter would get behind this. But I guess not...
Oh well,I'll donate some time to this cause.

[Don Wittenberger]

Okay, I accept that, and it's not a setback. We don't have to go through Chapter 57 to work on this issue. From my seat on IFPAG, I can represent pike fishermen as well as Chapter 57, and I'm willing to do that. However, I live in Seattle 300 miles away from POR, so folks in the Spokane area who are interested in this have to help carry the ball. One thing you might want to consider is forming a pike club. It could be very informal, you don't need officers or meetings, a message board and maybe an occasional get together is all you really need. Maybe you can persuade Mike Carey to give you a separate message board on this site. I'm just tossing out ideas. The main thing is you want a lobbying group because there's strength in numbers.

[Deadeyemark]

Mark, do you mean for all species, or just tiger muskies?

For all fishing of any kind on Tiger Musky stocked lakes.
How would you police it if you allowed 'other' baits for other species in a tiger musky stocked lake? Incidental catches? Etc? Everyone checked with 'other' than artificial lures would simply state they were fishing for other species.
Keep it simple. Artificial lures only on all tiger musky stocked lakes.

[Don Wittenberger]

Mark -- thanks for the clarification.

[Deadeyemark]

Information like this should be posted to every forum.
I am sure there are many members of this web site that do not check out the Muskie forum.
As you stated Don, you are a bridge between the "public" and the WDFW.

YellowBear,
You can sign up for WDFW notifications. I get mine emailed to me just like Don.

[mtsiview]

Mark, do you mean for all species, or just tiger muskies?

For all fishing of any kind on Tiger Musky stocked lakes.
How would you police it if you allowed 'other' baits for other species in a tiger musky stocked lake? Incidental catches? Etc? Everyone checked with 'other' than artificial lures would simply state they were fishing for other species.
Keep it simple. Artificial lures only on all tiger musky stocked lakes.

I'm sorry Deadeye, but I have to disagree with you on this one. Worms, dough, cocktail shrimp, salmon roe, liver, grubs, crayfish, leeches, crickets, anchovies, herring and smelt are all baits that are listed on the WDFW website as baits that are used to catch fish in our state. I am sure there are many more (i.e. Power bait, night crawlers and marshmallows) that are not listed. These baits are used to catch the many species of fish that inhabit the lakes and rivers (lower Lewis River) that can technically be considered muskie fisheries.

If we push for an “artificial lures only” rule on all musky waters, we will be taking away many of the current methods of catching other species of fish on every lake or river that is currently considered a muskie fishery, as well as, any future proposed muskie fishery. We would be keeping small children from fishing on these same bodies of water for trout, crappie, bluegill and perch because they are not old enough or coordinated enough to operate a spinning rod and reel instead of just watching a bobber with a hook and worm, or Power bait, on it.

To quote some parts of our mission statement:
• *To establish hatcheries and rearing ponds and introduce the species into suitable waters][/size]

[Deadeyemark]

Good points Rich. I was only thinking of the big game species involved. I haven't fished with any kind of live bait in so long that I've forgotten about all the different types out there.

[mtsiview]

It's easy to get excited about having more and bigger muskies! Hell, there are nights when I dream about the darn things! I just want us to pool our thoughts so that we accomplish what we want to accomplish, without making too many enemies in the process. Yes, we will never please everyone, but if we are careful, we will get the job done with minimal repercussions. We have many very smart and influential members and I hope they all chime in and help us get the job done. Don W. is doing a great job and I feel that he is looking for input from all of the chapter members, as well as non-member musky fishermen.

[Don Wittenberger]

My recommendation is to copy the language of no-bait rules already on the books (e.g., fly-only trout fisheries). There are several reasons for this:

1) Enforcement officers are already familiar with the language and won't be confused.
2) Ditto prosecutors and judges.
3) The Commission will be more willing to adopt a cookie-cutter rule they've seen before. If what we're asking them to do appears equivalent to designating a few more trout lakes as flies-only, it'll seem like no big deal and they'll be more willing to do it.

In other words, don't get creative or fancy, just follow what WDFW already does in selective gear regulations for other species. Done that way, there's much less chance of it getting bounced back for revisions, and you avoid potential enforcement problems.

[dilbert]

Proposal #19 should have no effect on tiger muskie tournaments, as there's no bass tournaments on muskie waters and there's too few muskie tournaments to create scheduling conflicts.

There are two bass tournaments scheduled on Lake Tapps in 2008. Not many, but more than none.

[dilbert]

My recommendation is to copy the language of no-bait rules already on the books (e.g., fly-only trout fisheries).

WDFW defines Bait as:
"Anything that attracts fish or shellfish by scent
and/or flavor. This includes any device made
of feathers, hair, fiber, wood, metal, glass,
cork, leather, rubber, or plastic, which uses
scent and/or flavoring to attract fish or wildlife."

With this definition, salted soft plastics are considered Bait. Using a scent on an artificial lure would also make it Bait. All Yamamoto products (senkos, grubs, etc.), roboworms, and the knock-offs of these products are all salted, and therefore Bait. These soft plastics are used by many bass anglers. Many bass anglers also use scent on other lures.

Believe it or not, there are people not fishing for Muskies in Muskie waters. There are other species out there. I'm not feeling the good fellowship.

[Don Wittenberger]

What I'm talking about is a rule specifying what tackle can be used to fish for tiger muskies. A rule prohibiting "bait" and/or allowing only "lures" or "artificial" lures for tiger muskies won't apply to bass fishermen. You can easily add a phrase allowing "impregnated or added scents," if desired. (I don't have a problem with squirting scent formulas on bucktails or plugs, or using scented plastic lures or trailers.)

I don't think accidental hooking of tiger muskies on bait by anglers fishing for other species is a significant problem, and I don't think anyone should be cited for that. The impact of that on the tiger muskie population is negligible. No rule will prevent all angler mortality. The goal is to minimize it, and banning intentional use of unnecessarily injurious methods to fish for tiger muskies is sufficient for that purpose.

In any case, we'll want to work with WDFW on the exact wording before submitting it because they'll have to enforce it, so it would be wise to solicit their suggestions.

[Bill G]

Let's just drop all these proposals, back up 10 yards and punt.
Bill

[Rosann G]

Very nicely put mtsiview and dilbert.
Let's try not to alienate any more of the fisherpeople than the tiger muskie club already has.
Rosann

[Don Wittenberger]

Let's just drop all these proposals, back up 10 yards and punt.
Bill

Why, Bill? There's a lively discussion going on here, with various ideas being put forward, and that's good. It's occurring well in advance of when we'll need to come up with a specific proposal, and that's good, too -- better early than late. As long as the discussion is productive it should be encouraged, not discouraged.

P.S., I agree with you, Rosann.

[Lucius]

[quote="bad esox"]Don,

While it recognized the the Northern Pike is a related species to the Muskellunge, especially the Tiger Muskellunge, let's review the Muskies Inc. "Mission Statement" and "Purpose" at this time.

Muskies Inc. Mission Statement: Muskies Inc. is an active, service-oriented, non-profit organization with the SINGLE focus of improving the sport of muskie fishing for men, women, and children.

Our MISSION is to unite all muskie fishing interests for the promotion and protection of a high quality muskellunge sport fishery in the United States and Canada.

We will accomplish this by supporting conservation practices and research based on sound scientific merit, and carried out by authorized federal or state agencies, appropriate academic institutions, Muskies Inc. chapters, and their members.

We are committed to the abatement of water pollution]

I fully understand that the mission statement for Muskies Inc is directed solely at the species of of pure Muskie (Musky for you Wisconsinites), but considering if there were no Northern Pike, then chapter 57 would not exist (well at least it would not exist in the state of Washington). I would find it disappointing if Chapter 57 did not get involved in the State Northern Pike fishery considering the trophy potential of the waters that are being discussed. If fact I know of at least one Muskies Inc chapter that holds a Pike fishing tournament every year. I think there can be some agreement/arrangement that Chapter 57 can at least put some energy and maybe a little resources, if necessary, to help out with this issue.

[kevinb]

Don,

While it recognized the the Northern Pike is a related species to the Muskellunge, especially the Tiger Muskellunge, let's review the Muskies Inc. "Mission Statement" and "Purpose" at this time.

Muskies Inc. Mission Statement: Muskies Inc. is an active, service-oriented, non-profit organization with the SINGLE focus of improving the sport of muskie fishing for men, women, and children.

Our MISSION is to unite all muskie fishing interests for the promotion and protection of a high quality muskellunge sport fishery in the United States and Canada.

We will accomplish this by supporting conservation practices and research based on sound scientific merit, and carried out by authorized federal or state agencies, appropriate academic institutions, Muskies Inc. chapters, and their members.

We are committed to the abatement of water pollution]

I fully understand that the mission statement for Muskies Inc is directed solely at the species of of pure Muskie (Musky for you Wisconsinites), but considering if there were no Northern Pike, then chapter 57 would not exist (well at least it would not exist in the state of Washington). I would find it disappointing if Chapter 57 did not get involved in the State Northern Pike fishery considering the trophy potential of the waters that are being discussed. If fact I know of at least one Muskies Inc chapter that holds a Pike fishing tournament every year. I think there can be some agreement/arrangement that Chapter 57 can at least put some energy and maybe a little resources, if necessary, to help out with this issue.

=d> =d> =d>

[Deadeyemark]

I'd have to agree with ya Lucius. I know some of the musky tourneys back home have a northern category. There are many warmwater fish and al of them fun to catch with matching gear. I used to love catching northerns back home. Hell, they kept me entertained for a few days this past July during the Muske Nutz tourney and fun fishing before it.