Don't Blame those "greedy oil companies"

[Jesper]

Food prices are already at a record high, and is being blamed for starvation in Ethiopia. You want to use more land to grow crop for bio diesel instead of food? That's going to be a hard sell. Besides almost all biodiesel is B20, so you still need 80% fossil fuel.

[kantill]

Ok first of all do some research. Second most scientists are looking into switchgrass or sugar cane instead corn. Lastly you don't use the kernel to make bio-diesel it comes from a by product.

I know I said lastly but I had to go there, a 20% decrease of fuel usage would make a huge impact for everybody else including the starving people in Ethiopia. Also the term bio-diesel also includes using recyclables like chicken fat and cooking oil.

If we think there is no way of making a difference in the world that is exactly what will happen.

[Jesper]

That's fine they are looking into that, but unfortunately that's not going to move ships any time soon. Yes you do use the kernel to make biodiesel for first generation biofuel. There is a second generation biofuel that would only use the waste products, but there is not a single plant in the world producing commercially available 2 generation bioduel.

Chicken fat...great. How much gas are you going to spend driving around to McDonald's collection fat? I mean, the amount of fuel a tanker uses to go from Europe to the US....

I never said that there is no way to make a difference, just that there is currently no viable alternative to oil as far as transport goes. My point was that I don't understand why the US is not drilling off shore when there's known reserves there.

[kantill]

I never cease to amaze me the small thinking people. We already have people that go around to clean up grease traps from a restaurant that either sells it to be recycled or does it themselves.

You say that there are no plants that can be producing commercially; the sugar industry in Florida alone is a multi-million dollar industry. Switchgrass covers most of North America and would be able to be grown in areas that corn never could.

As been stated here by more than one person we do not have the resources to start producing oil in a manner that makes sense. It would take almost twenty years before us as a country can produce any large source of oil.


There is no oil shortage. Here I will say it again there is no oil shortage. There is big business making money and the longer we allow them to keep up this charade the worst it is going to be.

[Gisteppo]

I think tankers and freighters are a side note to the story, but lets take some of the facts and insert them.

The bulk of LARGE freighters (tankers, supertankers, and boats that are a tight fit or too big to go through the Panama canal) don't run on diesel.

They run on bunker oil, a considerably less-refined version of diesel. They utilize Dr. Diesel's principles to the highest level, they actually use injectors which are attached to the piston instead of the cylinder head. Extremely high pressure aerosolizes the fuel in the big cylinders, and they run at very low rpm, usually between 300 and 800 rpm at full throttle.

E

[kantill]

I think tankers and freighters are a side note to the story, but lets take some of the facts and insert them.

The bulk of LARGE freighters (tankers, supertankers, and boats that are a tight fit or too big to go through the Panama canal) don't run on diesel.

They run on bunker oil, a considerably less-refined version of diesel. They utilize Dr. Diesel's principles to the highest level, they actually use injectors which are attached to the piston instead of the cylinder head. Extremely high pressure aerosolizes the fuel in the big cylinders, and they run at very low rpm, usually between 300 and 800 rpm at full throttle.

E

I stand somewhat corrected, when I said diesel I wasn't meaning the diesel fuel that you can find at the corner gas station. When I said diesel I meaning the type of engine they have. The concept of bio-diesel still will work for them due to the way a diesel engine burns fuel.

[Gisteppo]

Actually that more refined diesel/biodiesel/veggie oil has a much faster burn rate and flame spread in the cylinder. It would cause detonation.

I still see your point, no worries there.

E

[Jesper]

I never cease to amaze me the small thinking people. We already have people that go around to clean up grease traps from a restaurant that either sells it to be recycled or does it themselves.

You say that there are no plants that can be producing commercially]There is no oil shortage[/b]. Here I will say it again there is no oil shortage. There is big business making money and the longer we allow them to keep up this charade the worst it is going to be.

And how many vehicles/ships/planes is that fat powering? It's a fine idea, but it's not going to solve any energy issues.

I'll say it again: There is no plant in the world that produces 2 nd generation biofuel for commercial purposes. Look it up if you don't believe me.

"The MMS estimates that the quantity of undiscovered technically recoverable resources ranges from 66.6 to 115.3 billion barrels of oil and 326.4 to 565.9 trillion cubic feet of natural gas." I'd say that's enough to make a difference.

http://www.mms.gov/revaldiv/RedNatAssessment.htm

[kantill]

Check out this site
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/fuels/index.html

Like I said it is not a shortage issue it is a resource issue. We have on this planet we have enough oil to keep us going for a very long time. What we don't have is the refineries to process the oil. We have not opened a new refinery in over twenty years but we have closed over hundred of them.

As for the "fat" as you call it, countries all over the world have started to produce commercially bio-fuels.

I have read the reports and yes experts do not feel we can have this in full production by the end of this decade. That is still better than 2020 for your drilling for oil.

Also most experts feel we can never get away from oil completely, I feel that maybe true but could also be fear talking.

[Jesper]

Oil is a finite resource, but I agree that there is also a major refining problem.

As for the "fat" as you call it, countries all over the world have started to produce commercially bio-fuels.

Not based on checken fat on a commecial scale, from veggie oil maybe, but then you have the food vs. energy issue at least until they find a way to produce 2 generation biofuel.

I have read the reports and yes experts do not feel we can have this in full production by the end of this decade. That is still better than 2020 for your drilling for oil.

I'm assuming you mean 2 gen biofuel? If so where are you going to grow it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but sugar canes can only grow in FL.

Switchgrass covers most of North America and would be able to be grown in areas that corn never could

So you are willing to harvest areas that have previously not been used for agriculture, and thus destroy more habitat for wildlife? Or should we switch agricultural areas from food to energy?

I'm not against biofuel, I just don't think it can make a significant impact as an energy source.

Also, I don't think it would take 20 years to start drilling off shore, but if you have a link saying otherswise I'd be happy to read it.

[kantill]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but sugar canes can only grow in FL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_cane

Also, I don't think it would take 20 years to start drilling off shore, but if you have a link saying otherswise I'd be happy to read it.

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory ... /story.htm

I'm not against biofuel, I just don't think it can make a significant impact as an energy source.

http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_biomass-crops.htm

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/ ... l-829.html

And if you need one reason why we should not drill off shore

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/17/ ... index.html

Again please do some research and not just quote off of two year old reports that were based off of studies in the 90's.

[fish4brains]

I like majitos.

[Jesper]

Maybe I should be more specific, I thought sugar canes can only grow in FL within US borders. What's the point of replacing one source or energy with another if it has to be imported anyway?

I never said anything about ANWR. I said Off shore drilling, as in Outer Cotinental Shelf drilling in say, FL and CA.

Did you read the Time article that was referred to in one of your links? You should.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 75,00.html

Here's a tidbit from above article:"Even cellulosic ethanol made from switchgrass, which has been promoted by eco-activists and eco-investors as well as by President Bush as the fuel of the future, looks less green than oil-derived gasoline."

[kantill]

It also grows in hawaii just as a fyi.

The one thing you won't let go of is bio-diesel is a term. The main pull for corn, switchgrass and sugar cane is to make mainly ethanol not bio-diesel as the article you are referring to says. Ethanol is not bio-diesel bio-diesel is not ethanol, ethanol was a replacement for normal gas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol


As for offshore drilling anyplace we would still have the same problems with processing the oil. Unless we ship it somewhere and what good would that be.

To tell you the truth I personally believe that more time needs to spent in hydrogen on demand systems like this one

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/11 ... droge.html

[joshswrench]

Any news on correcting the "enron" loophole yet?

[kantill]

[joshswrench]

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar ... seeks.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0624/p01s04-usec.html

One of the reasons for high oil prices. Called the enron loophole because it was enron that exploited it in the beginning and the reason why they went the direction they did.

[kantill]

Didn't know that they named it after them. Well if we can believe him Obama says that he will close it.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/b ... 080623.htm

[joshswrench]

I'd probably say that right now too if I were running for president. But anyway you look at it, it'll help the prices if it's closed.

[kantill]

Well I did say "IF"; some of the articles I was reading alot of people agree but some feel that will just give more reasons to raise them higher.