Garmin is screwing customers - dont buy Garmin

[Larry3215]

Hey guys, as many of you know I am - or I was - a big Garmin fan boy. Ive been pushing them as the way to go for more than a year now.

I just learned over the weekend that Garmin has been lying about the specs on their new CV transducers. This is a big deal as far as Im concerned. I feel badly about having helped talk people into buying some of the Gamin models with the new CV transducers, so.... I want to give you a heads up and tell you what you can do to try to get it fixed.

Some background - Navico has a patent on downview technology using a dedicated downview element in the transducer. Every other brand has paid Navico to use this technology except Garmin. They tried just stealing it but lost a law suit a few years ago. Then they tried making some minor changes in the down element and lost that battle too.

Then last year they came out with the new CV transducers and changed the name of their Downvu to Clearvu. They told me, and all their customers and dealers that it was just a name change and that the GT52/GT40/GT50?GT51/GT52 etc transducers were the same as the CV40/41/50/51/52. etc transducers - It was just a name change. Performance was the same ir actually even better detail.

Turns out that was a flat out lie.

What they actually did was completely remove the dedicated down element from all the CV transducers. They then changed the software to stitch together the two side elements to create a simulated "Clearvu" down image. This is OLD technology and is in no way better and will not show more detail.

These CV transducers are not for sale separately - they only come bundled with certain echomap models - pretty much ALL the new echomap units that come with a transducer will only come with the CV model.

So... if you have purchased a Garmin package within the last year or so - that included a bundled transducer - check the tag on the end of the cable where it plugs into your mfd to see if you got one of the CV models.

If you got a CV transducer - you got screwed.

if you have a GT transducer, you are fine.

If you got the CV model, call Garmin support and ask for a FREE exchange. They may or may not give you a GT transducer.

So far its confusing. They told one guy today, no problem and were willing to trade him for a GT model.

They told another guy "NO, you have to return it to the dealer you bought it from".

Those are the only two reports I have so far.

You can call customer support at 1 (800) 800-1020

I would also call the dealer you bought from and complain LOUDLY so they can put more pressure on Garmin.

Here are some links to other threads where this is being discussed.

Lowrance started things with this web page and video. They sent out an email to all their customers. At the end of the video they cut into a CV transducer and show no down element. Garmin has since acknowledged there is no element.

http://www.lowrance.com/true-downscan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Other discussions here:

http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread.php?t=797744" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread.php?t=798372" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-elec ... rance.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are others as well, but those cover the main points.

Remember, this only covers the CV transducers that were shipped as part of a bundle with the echomap models.

I am very sorry for having played a part in spreading this false information.

[Amx]

Ya, I saw the video that Lowrance put out. Surprised me. Makes me wonder about garmin now.

And it sure isn't your fault if garmin was lying about it.

[Larry3215]

Thanks Tom.

I can forgive an honest mistake or occasional screw up from a company as long as they fix it in a reasonable time frame.

I can even tolerate a certain amount of stretching the truth in marketing or advertising.

Just flat out false advertising and lying is something I cant tolerate at all.

[Blind Squirrel]

I was wondering why the newer Garmin units were half price recently. I was kind of bummed I bought the Lowrance after seeing how low the prices of the Garmin's were going for, but now I"m sure glad I did.

Garmin should give refunds for false advertising.

[zen leecher aka Bill W]

Usually those "refunds" are the settlements in a class action suit. This appears to be the same as what VW did with their emissions.

[TrackerPro16]

I am curious how they are allowed to sell the GT series at all if it has the three transducers?

[Jtjj]

I am curious how they are allowed to sell the GT series at all if it has the three transducers?

[Larry3215]

I am very sorry to say that Garmin has decided to give the finger to everyone they have screwed with this CV transducer crap.

Here are the answers they gave to two different people today.

Here is the reply I got back from them.

Hello Bryan,

I apologize about the confusion regarding the ClearVu sonar that we provide. The Echomap Chirp 93sv shows on our website that it comes with a ClearVu transducer and nowhere does it list that the transducer utilizes a downward facing element. Below I have included a link to the device on our website for you to review. The device has all the features that are advertised. We cannot just exchange your CV transducer for our GT transducer. Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance.

Got off the phone with them 20 minutes ago. Their official stance is that they will never exchange transducers per memo's handed down this morning. I asked to speak to a supervisor, he left for 5 minutes, came back, and said that I could talk to him, but they absolutely will not exchange transducers.

The guy was unapologetic and told me that "we've done nothing wrong." When I told him that they lied about the performance of the product he actually told me "no company tells the truth about their products." When I said to him they didn't tell anyone they removed the down element he said, "well we never said it was in there in the first place."

I actually wasn't upset about this whole thing until talking to that guy. Now I think I'll be returning mine to Cabelas and switching it out for another company. Kinda think I'm done with Garmin.

Keep in mind this is after customer support has been telling everyone for months that the only thing changed was the name.


If you got stuck with one of these, its time to start yelling at the dealers you purchased your stuff from and maybe considering legal action or at least contacting your Attorney General.


I am done with Garmin and I sincerely apologize for ever recommending them to you guys.

[Larry3215]

I am curious how they are allowed to sell the GT series at all if it has the three transducers?

I have no idea why, but the court order only applied to transducers that were bundled with an MFD.

[TrackerPro16]

I went and looked at some of the old ad's and the wording was different for the different transducers. Not saying it was right for them to NOT be specific and tell people they were different, but the wording was different. If people were told they were 'the same' that is a totally different matter. I am thinking there will be a class action at some point. Perhaps if enough stink gets raised they will step up and change them out.

[Larry3215]

They put out a press release type thing from one of their Pro's saying the only reason for the change was for marketing purposes - to differentiate Garmin from the everyone else.

I could post dozens of links to customer support and various dealers telling people there was no difference other than a name change.

[Larry3215]

I just got this from a long time Garmin dealer. Looks like Garmin is screwing their dealers as badly as their customers.

I am a small installing dealer and nothing was said to us about the transducer differences. I have one 93CV unit out in the field and this person is not happy with Garmin. Fortunately he is a very good customer of mine and knows I would never mislead him intentionally.

So this morning, I called Garmin to see what they can do for me, the dealer, so I can take care of this customer. Basically they told me the same thing that they have been telling their end-users. They offered no help, explained the transducer was working as designed, and offered me a GT52 transducer at a price higher than what I can buy it wholesale for. My customer has already gotten rid of his panoptix and simply wants to sell this machine. So here I am, a well respected electronics dealer/installer that isn't big enough to absorb returns on the scale that some dealers are about to see. I am fortunate that this is the only unit that doesn't have a transducer with a down imaging element that I have sold. My only option at this point is to list this unit and hope I can recoup some of my cost.

Anyway you look at it this is a piss-poor reaction to a Garmin dealer of 5 plus years. I have always been leery of Garmin's marketing strategies, such as their lack of Navionics mapping, so I never push their products. In hindsight I'm glad I didn't.

[TrackerPro16]

I don't know if it would help but we could all start hitting the 'chat' ability on the Garmin site and ask about what they are going to do about this?

[Amx]

They won't listen, and probably just shut it down for awhile.

The only thing that'll get their attention is a class action law suit.

[TrackerPro16]

"My customer has already gotten rid of his panoptix and simply wants to sell this machine."

Unfortunately, all Garmin may see is that they sold the units in the first place and will not really care after that. Not to mention the guy kind of shot himself in the foot. Getting rid of a $1600+ unit because of a $200 transducer issue... Well, the lying part too, but he already had the transducers.
Unless there is a big enough backlash or class action they will just roll along. One of the other manufacturers will come up with something to compete with Panoptix and that may tip the scales. Perhaps a ring of transducers in phased array so it is like a Panoptix but 360*? Probably would be a pretty big unit though. 180* would work too.
This is like the VW thing but is less money. Not to mention EVERYONE I have talked to about their VW was happy with their car and the performance. So it is not the same really... This is a LACK of performance issue. Misleading in the opposite direction. Not good.
Time will tell how this plays out. I doubt it will bury Garmin, but it may hurt their Marine section some.

[Larry3215]

When ever there is a "What sonar should I buy?" thread you can count on two things popping up almost instantly.

1) Someone will say "Never Lowrance" and start talking about bad customer service, water intrusion and screen issues and how they got screwed.

2) Then someone else will say "Forget Garmin. You cant use Navionics charts and Garmin charts suck." It used to be the Garmin fan boys would talk about the outstanding customer service and hi quality parts from Garmin to offset the map thing - no more.

Now Garmin is going to have a second - even bigger - black eye.

Plus, they are pissing off their dealer network with this, so they wont be very eager to promote Garmin when asked. I can hear the salesman now..."I used to recommend Garmin, but we got a bunch of returns and Garmin wouldnt stand behind them."

[Amx]

The 2 times I've had problems with Lowrance the company has gone out of their way to approve and send a replacement unit. 1 HDS 12 on the old boat, and 1 HDS 7 gen2 on my new boat, which I upgraded to an HDS 9gen3. Ya it cost me $560, but it's much better than the littler screen. The 7 was even out of warranty by a half year.

[Bodofish]

The 2 times I've had problems with Lowrance the company has gone out of their way to approve and send a replacement unit. 1 HDS 12 on the old boat, and 1 HDS 7 gen2 on my new boat, which I upgraded to an HDS 9gen3. Ya it cost me $560, but it's much better than the littler screen. The 7 was even out of warranty by a half year.

They've always treated me right too, in fact gone way out of their way to make sure I got the right update that wasn't even published on their support site. Sent me and flash card to update my FF. But I've always had excellent support help from Garmin too. With my little handheld gps and for TR-1's after they bought them. Then a rather scandalous problem like the one they find themselves in will change a lot of things.........

[Larry3215]

From what I have heard, after they were bought out, they turned things around.

The old mistakes still haunt them though. Once you have pissed off a customer, they tend to stay pissed off AND thy are not shy about letting everyone know about it

There is that old saying that a happy customer will tell two people but an UN-happy customer will tell ten people.

Thats were Garmin is going now. This is going to haunt them for a long time.

[TrackerPro16]

They may yet decide to do something. Time will tell...