Floods and rains

[A9]

By the time they get upriver to the spawning grounds it's late September early October...

So most of the Pinks haven't hatched, and even if they did, they stay in the rivers for a few months, and theres no way at the age of just hatching that they could not get washed down by the floods...

[Shane]

But these floods are much more impacted because of our urban growth and deforestation. Floods now a days are much worse because of how much faster the water goes down into our river systems and how much worse our soils absorb this excess water nowadays then they used to before we tried to play god and change the rivers for our benefit..

We have more urban growth and deforestation. I can agree with that but at the same time we have less rain and snow during the year than what was 100 years ago. I think that its the same now as it was 100 years ago just more people.

[Shane]

By the time they get upriver to the spawning grounds it's late September early October...

So most of the Pinks haven't hatched, and even if they did, they stay in the rivers for a few months, and theres no way at the age of just hatching that they could not get washed down by the floods...

By the time sep was done there where thousends of dead pinks were floting down stream. and not all pinks stay in the river system most will go into lakes and small streams for only 1 to 2 months than they go to the ocean. I did not see one live pink in oct.

[A9]

But these floods are much more impacted because of our urban growth and deforestation. Floods now a days are much worse because of how much faster the water goes down into our river systems and how much worse our soils absorb this excess water nowadays then they used to before we tried to play god and change the rivers for our benefit..

We have more urban growth and deforestation. I can agree with that but at the same time we have less rain and snow during the year than what was 100 years ago. I think that its the same now as it was 100 years ago just more people.

The severity of our floods and storms are much worse now. Thats the difference...

[A9]

"The eggs hatch from December to February, depending on water temperature, and the juveniles emerge from the gravel during March and April and quickly migrate downstream to estuaries..."

So they would be affected by the water. Especially since Pinks dig the shallowest redds...

[Derrick-k]

Why are you worrying about the pinks so much? Its the kings and silvers we should be worrying about.

[A9]

I'm not worried about the Pinks. But the Kings and silvers I do worry more about. No doubt I agree with you 100% on that. I don't see any reason to necessarily "worry" about pinks, I was just informing him of what he was incorrect on.

[Fish Antics]

Don't forget that the coho juveniles have to overwinter in the streams. Research on juvenile coho from high gradient coastal streams demonstrated that juveniles moved upstream in the fall to bypass the hostility of mainstem flows. They found overwintering habitats in beaver ponds and small stable feeder tributaries. In the spring they outmigrate from these winter hold-overs to begin their journey to saltwater. In the case of watersheds like the Chehalis we will have to see how sucessful the juveniles are dealing with high flows now and then finding suitable habitat as the water levels drop.
It's all very complicated to predict but the impact will be high, including the siltation issue mentioned above that will block the percolation in the redds of this year's crop.

[littleriver]

I don't think the mainstream chehalis has ever had much of a coho run micro. Tribs like the satsop and the skook provide most of the action for coho in this watershed and both are served by hatcheries. The skook didn't even flood this week because water flow was controlled by the dam that forms skookumchuck lake.


However, as much fun as it is to pontificate about future runs let's not forget that there should be a lot of fish to catch the next week or so. Weatherman isn't predicting much rain for the next 10 days or so and the rivers are dropping right now. Some are dropping quickly others are dragging behind. But they are all dropping.

I'm predicting that the Satsop will be at my target 2,000 cfs by next Monday and I'm going to be hitting the rivers in that
area pretty hard next week. Heavy rains should have brought in the remainder of this years chum and coho run along with the first winter steelhead of the season. The trick is to get to your favorite hole before it gets worked too hard by other sporties.

If I lived north of Seattle I would be looking at Pilchuck Creek and the Pilchuck River right now. They are small rivers that are easy to fish and they are probably getting their first steelhead of the season also. Pilchuck Creek is a tributary to the mainstream stillaguamish and I-5 goes over it just north of where it goes over the stilly. I used to just park along the edge of the freeway and walk down to the creek. When there were fresh fish in the creek I would usually catch one on the first few casts. If I didn't catch anything on one of my first few casts I didn't catch anything at all. Pilchuck river flows out of the southern slopes of Mt. Pilchuck and enters the snohomish river east of the town of Snohomish. It used to have a pretty good steelhead run. I've fished it a few times but never caught one but the water definitely looks fishy. I'm sure if I had put in more time I would have figured this one out. Also, a lot of the land along Pilchuck River is privately owned so some reconoitering will probably necessary to find a good spot to intercept. It's been a few decades since I've fished it and the spots where I used to access the river may not even exist anymore. A pretty river though.

[Jake Dogfish]

I would describe the Chehalis, Satsop and its tributaries as a prime example of "Deforestation" Its amazing how two people could look at the same thing and see just the opposite. Many of the areas to the east of the river have been clear cut, and you don't have to go far to see it. The same main roads that 15 years ago used to be dark to drive down during the day because of the forest you can't even see a tree anymore...

[Shane]

I'm not worried about the Pinks. But the Kings and silvers I do worry more about. No doubt I agree with you 100% on that. I don't see any reason to necessarily "worry" about pinks, I was just informing him of what he was incorrect on.

Im not incorrect on anything. I have study these fish for years know. and i am worried about the kings and silvers. But you got to remember these fish have done this for hundreds of years. I still belive that it was worse 100years ago not only because of floods but also because what humens were domping into are water system before they relized what it was doing. the fish population has increased over the last 20 years.

[A9]

I understand that they have done this for many more years than we can imagine. I'm not saying that this is the end-all flood that ruins our salmon stocks, I merely meant to say that this flood will have a "significant" (how significant? We'll have to see when the returning fish come back) impact on fish stocks.

And you say the fish population has increased over the past 20 years? I'm sorry but thats a VERY general statement, and if you could please provide us with more information and possibly some facts, I'd really enjoy reading it...

[littleriver]

Jake... East of the chehalis is the newaukum and the skookumchuck. Skookumchuck didn't even hit flood stage.


The chehalis runs west/east for the most part as it runs through Doty and Pe Ell which is where the bulk of the rainfall was. How do you go east of something that runs from the west to the east??



The satsop runs north to south and there are some developed areas East of there but there's also a lot of forest land and you can even find stuff that
looks like old growth in there. Satsop hit about 35,000 cfs but that's not unusually high. It will typically go to 25,000 or more at least once every winter.


The south fork of the Chehalis runs south to north and there is some farmland in the boisfort valley it runs through but the bulk
of the drainage area for both forks is managed forest land. Trees are cut and replanted. Cut and replanted. Cut and replanted. That means there are areas that will be open now that were dark and forested 20 years ago. But there will also be areas that are dark and forested now that were open and unforested 20 years back.

That's called "managing forests for timber harvest" not deforestation.

Deforestation is what you see up in seattle. It's where forests were cut down and replaced with highways and houses and skyscrapers. By the way, most of the "so called" intellects who write emotionally about this kind of stuff live in places like Seattle, not places like Satsop or the Boisfort valley.

[mallard83]

Mallard... you definitely wrong about the sultan and the wallace. Sultan has a very healthy pink run... at least it did when my brother was running things at the dam.... and, by the way, this isn't a "bubble"... it's just a fact... pinks do not excite me...they are there and a lot of folks fish for them.... If you had read my post thoroughly you would have noted that I said that I think pinks and chum should be considered sport fish... but the managers of the resource do not agree....

I am not sure exactly how long ago your brother was involved in this project, but to call me wrong about a river system that I fish very regularly and know intimatly is very bold. I know that I do not know everything but I am very sure of myself on this one because my friend interned at the Wallace hatchery giving me valuable info and if you took some time when the Pinks are spawning and walked up and down the Wallace and the Sultan, I will garentee that the Wallace will have more Pinks.

And about not reading your post thouroughly, I felt that I read the post very well. Mabey it is just that your posts are always so long and drawn out it is hard to understand some of of the things that you write. I feel that I understood you just fine the first time and still stand by what I said.

No hard feelings, and you are right in the fact that people should get out and fish the rivers as they are pulling into shape.

[littleriver]

My brother has talked to me at great length about the pinks in the Sultan. I mean, this was about 20 years ago but he wasn't just fishing the river he was out there every day observing what was going on. It was his job. So I'm not just passing on something I heard in a bar.

It may be that the Snohomish County PUD has let things slip but, given the ideological leanings of that group, I would find that to be very surprising. My primary point was not that pinks don't spawn in any other areas of the skykomish watershed just that the Sultan is set up so managers have the tools to allow for a high rate of survival regarless of what mother nature does.

I mean, like I said, I sort of stopped fishing for pinks a long time ago. They don't really interest me. The only reason I keep up on their management at all is because I totally disagree with fishery managers who think that they are not recreational fish and that they should all be allocated to the commercials. This kind of thing comes up from time to time in the public discourse and when that happens I respond very strongly with my opinions if an opportunity arises. So, I wasn't meaning to be obnoxious on this forum, it's just that normally when I talk about pinks I AM trying to be obnoxious in order to make my point with someone who thinks the pinks should be handed over 100% to the commodity meat interests and some of that history may have slipped into my previous post.

You are obviously a lot more knowledgeable of the current situation along the skykomish watershed so I guess I'm just offering the information as ammunition to use with the fishery managers. If in fact pink runs are slipping on the sultan then you now have some information to use to convince local fishery managers and/or the Snohomish County PUD to straighten up their acts.

[lskiles]

from time to time in the public discourse and when that happens I respond very strongly with my opinions if an opportunity arises.

NO, littleriver with a strong opinion?

Seriously, man. I look for your posts. I skim others, but I read yours. Please, do not keep your opinions to yourself. It brightens my day. And we agree, well...most of the time!

Lewis

[A9]

Deforestation is what you see up in seattle. It's where forests were cut down and replaced with highways and houses and skyscrapers. By the way, most of the "so called" intellects who write emotionally about this kind of stuff live in places like Seattle, not places like Satsop or the Boisfort valley.

I'm not by any means an intellect who writes emotionally about deforestation. I'm no tree hugger. I'm just saying that nowadays floods are much worse because of our impact...

[A9]

fishery managers who think that they are not recreational fish and that they should all be allocated to the commercials... when I talk about pinks I AM trying to be obnoxious in order to make my point with someone who thinks the pinks should be handed over 100% to the commodity meat interests and some of that history may have slipped into my previous post.

Pinks and commercial fishing...Horrible idea. Unless we could get the netters to stop going after silvers and kings. It's bad enough to have such a huge indian and commercial fishery for Chums out there....

I love how they market Chum as "keta" salmon....

Just say no to Chums....

[iPodrodder]

I'm not worried about the Pinks. But the Kings and silvers I do worry more about. No doubt I agree with you 100% on that. I don't see any reason to necessarily "worry" about pinks, I was just informing him of what he was incorrect on.

Im not incorrect on anything. I have study these fish for years know. and i am worried about the kings and silvers. But you got to remember these fish have done this for hundreds of years. I still belive that it was worse 100years ago not only because of floods but also because what humens were domping into are water system before they relized what it was doing. the fish population has increased over the last 20 years.

Over the last 20 years......that's like having a lake, taking three quarters of the water out, then filling it back up to half. It's increased, but in the bigger scheme?

BTW floods and rains are more violent now. And I don't agree there is less rain in general. Clouds are formed through water condensation on dust particles from car emissions and tons of other stuff. So if anything, we are making it rainer.

[Anonymous]

I love how they market Chum as "keta" salmon....

I just found out where they get Keta from. The offical name of Chum Salmon is "Oncorhynchus keta".