Floods and rains

[dbfisherman]

Are stopping me from getting out to all the local rivers around the area. Anyone else lately?

[A9]

Most rivers are completely flooded everywhere...I dont think its about the rain keeping you off the rivers, its that almost every river is flooded or puking chocolate milk and carrying trees downstream with it...

[iPodrodder]

Not keeping me off. But I did see a car almost upside down in a huge puddle off the side of the road. Also a huge pond by my house tripled in size.

[littleriver]

A horrible scene and I pray for the victims and their loved ones. We lost an elderly gentleman not too far from where I live. He just went out to check out his sump pump and hasn't been heard from since. Haven't even found the body yet. My parents are very elderly and I've spent most of the last few days checking up on them and making sure they have everything they need and telling them that if they need anything to call me... don't go out and try to do stuff by yourself.

However, that said, these flood waters have 2 purposes. One is to annoy and destroy the homes of those who live in flood zones and the other is to call anadromous species to their spawning beds.


We all have our favorite rivers. I select a new one every year and this year I've selected the satsop. It crested at 35,000 cfs this morning. To put that in perspective Columbia river flows over bonneville dam in the August-Sept timeframe tend to run about 90,000 cfs. So the little satsop was almost half a columbia river yesterday. Unbelievable.

Anyways, this flood water is sending out a message to all the coho and all the steelhead waiting for a signal to move upstream and when the river drops all the pools will be filled with fresh fish.


hopefully that will be sometime this weekend.

[A9]

littleriver: I wouldn't be worried about these floods pulling in fish. I'd be more worried about how much of an impact these floods will have on the fish that already spawned.

This flood has decimated a lot of Lewis county and MANY other areas...

Most of these rivers are going to need more then a few days to get back into shape..

BTW the Queets was flowing at over 80,000 cfs...

These floods have all but ruined all the eggs that have already been deposited...Pinks in 2 years are going to be few and far, not to mention the Chum, Coho and Chinook that have already spawned...

[littleriver]

well, that's a good point, but the spawing areas for pinks tend to be a long ways upstream and it's hard to say exactly what the impact will be there.



It should also be noted that most the fish we catch are "hatchery" in origin and hopefully most of the hatcheries are protected from the high and muddy water.

and, it really doesn't take that long for some of these rivers to drop down. The satsop, for example, has dropped over 15,000 cfs since this morning. I think it will be down below 3,000 cfs by Saturday. It's dropped that fast before.

But every river is different. The Wynoochee is much slower to fall but I think that's because there is a reservoir on the upper portion of the watershed and they are controlling the outflow (e.g. when flood waters are raging they hold back water and when the rains slow down they release that water so you don't get the bounce up to 30k or 40k but it's a slow drop to 1k or 2k.


and besides, despite great ocean condition and lots of smolt being released 2 to 5 years back our current returns are kind of sucky. I believe that this is because commercial fishing interests are taking a huge toll. Back in 1999 the canadian government announced a 7 year plan that greatly reduced the harvest of their commercial fishermen. The referenced 7 years ended last year and I strongly suspect that renewed efforts by canadian commercial fishers is why our overall returns are much lower than expected this year. Most of the salmonoid runs from this state tend to go north up into Alaskan Waters and then work back down south along the West shoreline of Vancouver Island as they return "home". These fish are highly vulnerable to commercial harvestors with advanced fish finding technologies both in alaska and as they move along the west coast of vancouver Island.

So, all I'm saying is, when those rivers drop... get out there and get yours... It may be your last chance.

[A9]

The Sky up near Gold bar was still up near 50,000 cfs. Median for that area is just over 3,000 cfs. Thats more then enough water to wash away all the redds (pinks dig the shallowest ones) and if it doesn't wash them away, it'll more then likely cover them all with enough sediment to kill them. Not to mention all the salmon that are from last years spawn that are still spending their year in the river before they migrate to the salt.

Actually most of the fish we catch are wild. I've never heard of Pink hatcheries, but a fair amount of silvers and kings are hatchery released. As well as quite a few hatchery steelhead. Whether most of the fish are hatchery or not is different for every river system. But I'd be willing to be most are WILD.

At any rate, its not good that our fisheries are going to have to be sustained on hatchery fish...We need most of our fisheries to be full of WILD fish and not the hatchery fish that pollute the gene pools....Who cares if the fish made it back to hatcheries, we should be most worried about the effect that the floods have had on the wild fish population...

[Shane]

Can't fregit the record rains and floods we had two years ago but we still had a record pink year.

[A9]

Weren't those floods last year?

[Shane]

No last year we had the devasting wind storm exatly one year ago. then we had sub freezing temps the rest of the month with little rain. two years ago we had the 30 some days of non stop rain.

[littleriver]

You make some good points Sam but there's more to add......


Pinks spawn early and are susceptible to flooding but these make for a very limited fishery in Puget Sound. At most a month or so of fishing every other year or so. Area is also limited. Snohomish and Skagit river systems account for the bulk of the pink action in this state but a few do come down into the south sound and not all the beds on the Snohomish or the Skagit would have necessarily flooded. Many of the snohomish river system pinks spawn in the Sultan river and that water is protected by the dam that forms Spada Lake. Dam managers watch pink spawning activities and control flows to maximize success. I know this because my youngest brother was involved in the building of the dam and the setting up of it's related fish management programs. This is almost like having a "pink hatchery". The Skagit river does flood but there is some water management functionality from the Dams on the upper river and on tributaries like the Baker River. Not sure how much pink spawning takes place on the Baker but it's possible to protect those areas regardless of floods.

I will concede that pink runs on other rivers are probably going to take a hit but I really don't fish for pinks and don't think they are even "officially" considered a "sport fish"... Neither are Chum. I disagree with those assessments from fish managers but that's the way they were handling those species last time I checked. Admittedly it's been a few years, but these two species account for a very minimal amount of my fishing time so I don't pay too much attention to them.

I should also note that this flooding was caused by what's called the "Pineapple Express". A weather phenomenon common enough that it's got it's own name. This kind of flooding has been part of the Pacific Northwest scene for many centuries and the fish were doing very nicely even before they built the first hatchery so there seems to be some propensity for eggs and smolt to "weather the storms" so to say.


Chinook, like the pinks, have also spawned for the most part and the wild Redds may have taken a hit on some rivers. But there are lots of chinook hatcheries and I'm going to be surprised if total returns are impacted too much 5 years down the road.

Coho are still moving up the rivers and will continue for another month or so even though the bulk of the run is probably past. So even if some of the eggs have been blown out there are still fish going up to lay some more. Even better, in the case of the satsop, pretty much all the coho come from a hatchery on the East Fork.

So guys, it's OK. The salmon are going to survive.


When the river drops.. let's get out and catch some....


Satsop down to 11,000 cfs this morning. It was at 35,000 on monday morning. Rate of drop is tapering off though. I don't think it's going to get to 2,000 (the level at which I feel comfortable fishing it) until Sunday or Monday. But as soon as it's close, I'm gonna be there.

[A9]

I should also note that this flooding was caused by what's called the "Pineapple Express". A weather phenomenon common enough that it's got it's own name. This kind of flooding has been part of the Pacific Northwest scene for many centuries and the fish were doing very nicely even before they built the first hatchery so there seems to be some propensity for eggs and smolt to "weather the storms" so to say.

But these floods are much more impacted because of our urban growth and deforestation. Floods now a days are much worse because of how much faster the water goes down into our river systems and how much worse our soils absorb this excess water nowadays then they used to before we tried to play god and change the rivers for our benefit..

[iPodrodder]

I should also note that this flooding was caused by what's called the "Pineapple Express". A weather phenomenon common enough that it's got it's own name. This kind of flooding has been part of the Pacific Northwest scene for many centuries and the fish were doing very nicely even before they built the first hatchery so there seems to be some propensity for eggs and smolt to "weather the storms" so to say.

I agree with Sam too, but I have something to add. What weather pattern DOESN'T have its own name? El Nino (translation: THE NINO!) and La Nina both only happen once every seven or so years, and they have their own names.

We have tornado, hurricane, forest fire and a multitude of other things that can mess up the wild pretty bad. Now, when those things happen, what kind of defense do other animals have? Not much. Well, those fish have it even worse since they have their whole next generation in a small area.

Then, throw another wrench in the works. Sport fishermen, commercial fishermen, pollution, predators, other things that happen in the ocean. By the time you stack them on top of an already below average population, who is to say that we are going to have a good run?

[iPodrodder]

I should also note that this flooding was caused by what's called the "Pineapple Express". A weather phenomenon common enough that it's got it's own name. This kind of flooding has been part of the Pacific Northwest scene for many centuries and the fish were doing very nicely even before they built the first hatchery so there seems to be some propensity for eggs and smolt to "weather the storms" so to say.

But these floods are much more impacted because of our urban growth and deforestation. Floods now a days are much worse because of how much faster the water goes down into our river systems and how much worse our soils absorb this excess water nowadays then they used to before we tried to play god and change the rivers for our benefit..

Like when they killed the Elwha (even back then, there were only three rivers with every species of andromedos (sp?) fish native to Washington)? Or changed the White River so it would divert into the Puyallup instead of the regular one that I can't remember right now (another race of salmon gone)?

[mallard83]

Many of the snohomish river system pinks spawn in the Sultan river and that water is protected by the dam that forms Spada Lake. Dam managers watch pink spawning activities and control flows to maximize success. I know this because my youngest brother was involved in the building of the dam and the setting up of it's related fish management programs. This is almost like having a "pink hatchery". The Skagit river does flood but there is some water management functionality from the Dams on the upper river and on tributaries like the Baker River. Not sure how much pink spawning takes place on the Baker but it's possible to protect those areas regardless of floods.

I will concede that pink runs on other rivers are probably going to take a hit but I really don't fish for pinks and don't think they are even "officially" considered a "sport fish"... Neither are Chum.

I hate to burst your bubble Little River, but the majority of the Snohomish systems Pinks spawn in the Wallace River and the mainstem Skykomish River. The Sultan River only gets a handful of Pinks back compared to the other two. So the Sultan will have very little if any impact on the next Pink return.

As far as the Chums and Pinks not being sport fish is just rediculous. I actually got stopped when I was younger fishing the Sultan River for Chums by a game warden and I thought that I was fishing for food fish and he corrected me with a warning and told me that Chums are a sport fish by Washington State law. As far as the Pinks go, how can you call a fish that draws an unbelievable amount of money into our local economy a food fish. Pinks seem pretty sporty to me. The majority of the people that you will find out fishing for Pinks don't ever fish for another river species, or even another fish in general for that matter.

And to answer the question at hand, like Sam said in his other post on high water, wait until the river has a little visibility and try some plunking. And when the river clears enough, return to drift fishing.

[littleriver]

Mallard... you definitely wrong about the sultan and the wallace. Sultan has a very healthy pink run... at least it did when my brother was running things at the dam.... and, by the way, this isn't a "bubble"... it's just a fact... pinks do not excite me...they are there and a lot of folks fish for them.... If you had read my post thoroughly you would have noted that I said that I think pinks and chum should be considered sport fish... but the managers of the resource do not agree....


and Sam, when one speaks of "deforestation" one is talking about the permanent loss of a forest canopy. It can be credibly argued that this kind of thing has happened in places like Tacoma and Seattle but the big flood was on the Chehalis River and lesser floods occurred on rivers like the satsop, the bogachiel, and other rivers on the Olympic peninsula. I've done a lot of driving in the southern willapas where the Chehalis river originates and the word "deforestation" does not apply. If you have different information then I would greatly appreciate you posting some pictures. I really think it's time to stop obsessing over fantasies of environmental armageddon and recognize that we have exceptional opportunity in this state for returning salmonoids to recreate their species. When runs are weak, it's because we've allowed too much commercial overharvest, not because we don't have places for them to spawn...

I used to fish the norther sound drainage a lot... It was 30 or 40 years ago but Pilchuck Creek and the Pilchuck river used to be good. Whenever the rivers dropped after a strong rain in December there were steelhead to be caught.

All I'm saying here is, that's going to be happening this weekend on many of our state's westside rivers.... when your favorite one drops into shape, go out and catch some fish....

[A9]

Rainwater gets to the streams and rivers a lot faster nowadays then it did before we've urbanized a LOT of places aroudn the Puget Sound. It's just messing up the water cycle because the water makes it to the rivers a lot faster because waters going to run off a hill much faster going over pavement then seeping through the natural soils and a fair amount getting absorbed through the trees. Deforestation isn't just clear cutting Littleriver. Deforestation also includes where we cut down trees to put cities and residential neighborhoods...

BTW deforestation is just the loss of a forest. Nothing in the defintion claims permanent loss.

I'd bet a lot more of the water would be soaked up in the soil if there were less houses in the areas that got flooded in Lewis County. We've messed with rivers for years and we can't expect them to behave like we want them so people can put houses right on them for their pleasure. And what we aren't doing doesn't help...

And I hope you don't solely blame commercial harvesting for poor runs. Without a doubt commercial fishing takes a toll, but so do sportfishers, and I'd bet we've made a much bigger impact on salmon runs by messing up their watersheds and rivers then commercial fishing has done to our fish stocks....

[littleriver]

Good points Sam.

And, to be honest, I'm hoping that sport fishing harvest takes an even larger toll in the future.

Let's go out and catch some fish.....

[A9]

Let's go out and catch some fish.....

Sounds good

[Shane]

also pinks start to run in early to late aug. a fertilize egg takes about 3 months to hatch, so know that we are about 4 months into it. the majoraty of the pinks should have hatch by know and been on there way.