Carp or Northern Pike Minnow disposal - What is actually the best way to do it?

[bionic_one]

If the value of the fish is less than $20, it doesn't matter how anyone feels about it, it's not "wasting"

[YellowBear]

Its funny how things change with time.
Ten years ago this topic would have never come up, now here we are putting Carp and Salmon in the same class.
I catch Carp and I do eat them but they are by no means my first choice.
Carp ARE AN INVASIVE SPECIES and should IMHO! be managed as such.
To use the argument that we have a large Asian population that eat Carp is by no means valid.
The Snakehead is a good example.



Dispose of your catch in a thoughtful manner.
Don't let it become someone else's problem.

[racfish]

Lee this is Wa State!!!!! We think different then most states..

To anyone who shoots a carp or catches one and wants to get rid of it I'll take females or even just the egg roe.I could pay a lil something for undamaged and fresh roe.

[iwalton]

IWalton, I'm kind of sorry I was out fishing and not responding for so long, but the responses so far have been interesting. OK, not really, I don't find the discussions nearly as fun as Walleye Fishing. LOL

Glad to have you back.

I'm impressed that you went to the web that taught something about what a "slippery slope" argument was. The philosophical points of view taken by this site are by no means main stream, but I see where you hang your hat now. I still contend that if we take a fatalistic point of view that something is "here to stay" that we are giving permission to leave it status quo. The very fact that carp are suffering from, and being killed by, what appears to be a virus in Spokane Lake (AKA Long Lake) would tend to prove that perhaps carp are indeed not "here to stay", unless we choose to do nothing.

Link was for your enjoyment, not mine, lol:bigsmurf:
Back to the original question. I don't think viewing carp as "here to stay" is tantamount to leaving it as the status quo. Rather, as Stacie nicely put it "so we must manage them in the best way we can." (my emphasis on the words). It would seem that the state is doing "nothing", as you stated, yet carp are indeed dying off in Long Lake...a little confused here over what the significance of Long Lake in your argument against doing "nothing."?:-k

I think perhaps the defensive response is yours, but I suppose I can see how you could have interpreted my comments about friends as such. In fact, I do not question that you have friends, I question that you have friends that eat carp. A favorite Liberal Argument is always that one knows something special because they have some special connection to a special group. Unfortunately, more often then not, such connections do not exist, but the claim seems permissible under the presumption that the end justifies the means. I do not subscribe to the belief that the end justifies the means, so I find that I must question your connections to aforementioned special groups.

Again, you wonder about my friends eating carp. I have friend, even relatives that love carp as food. This seems fairly astounding to you. I doubt this will clear up until I post a photo of some huge carp feast I attend lol. As for your ramblings on liberal arguments, ends justifying the means, and various mutterings, I'll simply leave it with Lol Wut? Hopefully, we can get back on track here...

My experience obtained dealing with fisheries would suggest that listing carp as a "Non-Game fish", or an "Invasive Species" would serve the State well. With such designations, elimination of carp by fishermen would not be illegal. Fish flesh, such as carp or pikeminnow fillets (yes, I would suggest pikeminnow should be re-designated from game fish to one of these two categories), could be used as bait, or garden fortification, under such categories. Such a designation would not by it's nature allow littering, but it would decriminalize not eating carp. Under the designation of "food fish", like Salmon is, then wasting would constitute doing anything other then eating them.

Ok, excellent, now this is right on target with the actual discussion of this thread. Thanks for posting that. Props. I agree, "wasting" is a fairly "subjective" term and leaves it really up to the discretion of law enforcement/WDFW officials. I'm not going to go into the topic of using fish as your fertilizer, I would never do it, but I have had fellow anglers use everything, including stocker rainbow trout they tired of eating, as such garden goods.
I think perhaps the aim of the regulations against "wasting" fish was to prevent individuals from littering the banks with the carcasses of their catches. Perhaps when the regulations were put into place, the writers could not find suitable wording to describe such littering and through in the blanket term "wasting" to cover it. As you mentioned, leaving fish to rot is not the most desirable course (certainly the least appropriate for garnering public support for angling). I think designating the carp as a "non-game fish" yet also having stringent requirements against fish littering on public waters would probably keep a lot of people happy, home owners and responsible anglers included. As a carp angler, such a designation wouldn't matter too much to me, but labeling it as an "invasive species" would probably invite the sort of littering we are seeking to avoid.

As for the commercial fisheries program for carp, commercial fisheries will only work if the returns of such catches offer sufficient monetary return that it is profitable. In short, the carp problem will need to be completely out of hand before it will be profitable. Additionally, most bodies of water are either too small, too deep, or too shallow to ever functionally fish for carp commercially.

Look, we've pointed out before that commercial fisheries exist for carp in WA. Do we need to keep discussing this for two more pages?

A couple of final comments for iwalton, we can't even agree on how many things we agree on. You agreed with me about the Tiger Muskies and on the misquotes. two things not one. Isn't it funny that the first personal attach was yours regarding my moniker, but you want to be the first one to suggest we move beyond "such personal attacks". Would that also apply to your intentional use of the term VAST experience? I suppose that attacks are only personal if you are the one receiving them?

Aha! You got me there lol, I am too agreeable lol. Although, if we are going to get nitpicky, I'll point out-perhaps my highlighting of the text of the quote in bold was not obvious enough. Let's try again. AnglingArcher, I agree with you that carp are here to stay. (I do not condone the slapping of carp lol)
-----

AA, Maybe I read it wrong, but didn't you say Carp was a food fish in Asia? There are a LOT of asian people in this state, so it's kinda hard to say they can't be considered a food fish.

I find it REALLY odd that nobody ever complains about smallmouth bass in the Columbia river when it's pretty obvious that they get fat on Salmon smolt.

I've seen smallmouth get raged on by some angry salmon/steelhead guys on the iFish forum and a few other forums as well. I'm not clear on the statistics on exactly how many smolt a smallmouth consumes vs a northern pikeminnow. I haven't seen any hard data on it, the closest as AA's post on the numbers. (AA, I'm not doubting you, I believe your numbers are quite probably, but do you have any sources on that? I'd like to read up on it some more, as the topic does come up quite often with non-bass anglers).

Dispose of your catch in a thoughtful manner.
Don't let it become someone else's problem.

Lee this is Wa State!!!!! We think different then most states..

To anyone who shoots a carp or catches one and wants to get rid of it I'll take females or even just the egg roe.I could pay a lil something for undamaged and fresh roe.

How do you like to prepare it? I haven't heard of this before, mind PMing me a recipe?


(Sorry about the massive wall of quotes in this post)

[Anonymous]

The roe is made into a European dish called Boutarga.Its used with scrambled eggs or as a solid caviar sliced into thin slices and eaten with a cracker.Or some good french bread.You take the roe and de-vein it and salt it with a coarse salt.Let that sit in a stoneware container with a plate and weight on it in the reefer for 24-48 hours.Take them out and dry on racks for almost a week.(Do this portion in a room that can be closed off (smell)Once the roe gets hard and slicable I dip the roe in a hot melted beeswax to preserve them.You can grate it like a romano or parmesan cheese on eggs or pasta ,or just sliced up.This is a roe that is eaten heavily by Europeans and many Asian countries.

The other meal I make with carp is a Eastern European dish called Gefelte Fish.Its a mixture of ground whitefish and carp.The mixture is rolled into balls and boiled in a big pot of fish stock.Served on a plate w/ lots of very hot horseradish. (fresh is best)

[Dustin07]

They make great garden fertilizer. Place one fish in the groove next to each corn plant/stalk/corn seed.

they would also make good bait for crab or crawdads.

[Anglinarcher]

iwalton, sorry for not quoting you, but we will end up with such a long thread that even you and I won't read it all.

The fact that Carp are suffering a die off in Spokane Lake, AKA Long Lake, shows that there is a way to kill them selectively. It should be little trouble to isolate the virus, if it is indeed determined to be a virus, and disseminate virus in carp infested water. My argument is that we simply do not need to assume that Carp are here to stay, even if I concede that they probably are. If we assume carp are here to stay, and if we decide to protect them in the process, then why not the weeds, the zebra muscles, the ................. By now, I think everyone gets the point.

Your are correct, I not only want to see you at a carp feast, I want to see you eating it with your friends. That picture will not only silence me in that regard, it will have me rolling on the floor, laughing with great pleasure.

We are in partial agreement on wasting of fish, we both agree it is vague, even subjective. Perhaps the politicians did not have the right words when they wrote the law, but we are permitted, even encouraged, by several state publications that I have seen at F&W offices, to return fish remains to the water as a source of nutrient enhancement. I have not been to their offices lately, so I don't have a copy, but it struck me funny that if done at a public beach or dock such a policy would be counterproductive. Other threads on this site have also discussed this as well. If returning fish remains to the water is encouraged, then the term "waste" cannot mean "litter". I read about 15 years ago where a city on the West side had cleaned up the dead salmon in a stream in town to "clean their city" but the state made them return them back. I would like to note that I recall the literature as suggesting disposal in deep water away from public areas.

If we indeed consider leaving carp, or other invasive species left on the water, as littering, then it matters not what status you give it. We simply need to have revised laws that define littering. Perhaps, as far as fish is concerned:

...leaving fish remains in shallow water after removing the normally eatable portions, or leaving any whole or portion of non-game or invasive species in such a manner which would permit floating or drifting to the surface, shall considered littering.

Now, that took me 30 seconds to come up with, surely our brilliant politicians could do better.

You are correct, commercial fisheries for carp do exist in Washington, but remember that even Stacie said they did test fishing to determine if it is viable on different bodies of water. Not all bodies of water that have a carp problem are suitable to commercial fishing. As a management tool, I suggest it is all but worthless, but as a profit tool, the State may benefit in some cases. If it takes two or more pages to get this point across, I have no problem with it, and if you are fair and honest, neither would you.

As for Smallmouth and Walleye consumption of Pikeminnows, I regret that my knowledge comes from years of reading and I can't just reach for the data. I can direct you to a source that may help, at least as far as Walleye and Pikeminnow. The Idaho Fish and Game has a monthly publication that I believe they still put out, a magazine if you will. During the Mid 70's mid 80's when Walleye were just starting to pick up steam in the main Columbia, they reported on the potential impact of Walleye to the native fisheries and to the endangered and threatened Salmon and Steelhead. This is the first time that I read the data I gave you, but not the last. Still, this source is something that I can direct you to that you can find. I also saw something similar in another publication at the Spokane office of the WDF&W. You know, if you can get to a regional office, and just wonder their greeting foyer, you can find a wealth of information that they often later decide they don't want you to know. Such as a flier about Walleye that indicated that Walleye only spawn on certain waters, and they did not include Sprague in that list. Therefore, if this is so, then how could Walleye have been a problem in Sprague Lake unless the State was still stocking them, which they were not? Hmmmmmmmmmm Sorry, side track and thoughts about politics.

racfish, your recipe looks like something I tried when I was in Europe. Quite frankly, I like to eat fish, but both presentations were far to "fishy" for me. At the time I did not know it was carp. On a side note, caviar is very expensive, but I can't stand to eat it either. I suppose that it is an acquired taste. I know of people that eat perch eggs just like you do with the carp. It is quite illegal to sell you the roe, and any price, as it is to sell you any part of portion of recreational caught fish in Washington. I suggest that it is best for you to obtain your own. Try Lake Spokane in June, before they spawn out.

Sorry Dustin07, while they would and do make great crab and or crawdad bait, and for the matter great trout bait when cut into 2' by 1/2" strips, the laws are such that I am not sure it is legal. I sure won't turn you in for it, but ............. Stacie was going to research the pikeminnow question regarding that, so if Stacie ever comes back on, ask the question.

YellowBear, your example of the Snakehead is a perfect example, as is Piranha, flying carp, etc.

Bionic_one, who determines what the value of the Carp of Pikeminnow is? This goes back to my comment that guilt lies in the eyes of the Warden or Judge, not in the rule books.

flyfisher31, I am not sure just why you posted, but nothing is there except your signature; the signature is fitting, for both sides of this argument.

I am still waiting for Stacie to respond to some of the comments. Don't get me wrong, I really don't want to be adversarial, but Stacie is taking, as a good employee must, the "Company Line". If we are to get any real answers, then we need to put Stacie in a position where it is required to justify positions, opinions, or at least simply come out and say that "this is what the law says and this is how we are instructed to enforce It". At least at that point, we have something to take to our State representatives if necessary.

I really become a thorn in the WDF&W when they used Walleye as the excuse to kill off Sprague Lake. They flat out lied to us, then when we caught there lies/mistakes on the mathematics used, they altered their goals to justify the kill. They still blamed the walleye, but they now would not allow anyone to observe the kill. They used a lot of excuses, safety, etc., but they did allow the observation of the kill on the downstream lakes. Simply, if it was unsafe at Sprague, then it was unsafe to observe down stream. Additionally, observation of kill offs have been done for years and years, in this and other states. The chemical has not changed, no issues have ever been observed, so why the sudden change? I don't trust government when they do not permit verification. Don't get me wrong, there were so many CARP in Sprague that the kill off was more then justified, but tell us the truth, not create lies.

It is said that they only thing Evil needs to prevail is for good men to do nothing. I won't go so far as to call the state Evil, but I also will not be accused of doing nothing.

[iwalton]

I wasn't aware of the issue with Spraque, haven't (unfortunately) fished Eastern Washington lakes (yet).

"...leaving fish remains in shallow water after removing the normally eatable portions, or leaving any whole or portion of non-game or invasive species in such a manner which would permit floating or drifting to the surface, shall considered littering."

I like it.

Thanks for posting the info about Walleyes, it's a start at least. I wish someone would do some current hard data studies and get 'em published. The BPA program of bounty fishing for pikeminnow has been pretty extensive (over 3.5 million removed!), I wonder if they are still one of the major predators to smolts in the big C.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I've been working in the field.

I'm not really understanding what answers some of you are wanting from me.

These are the things I know:

Carp are a food fish and designated as such because there is a commercial fishery for them.

There are a lot of people that eat carp. What would be gained by doing a survey of how many people eat them (I'm confused about that part). I work with a lot of people that not only catch carp for eating, but also sportfish for carp.

I have spoken with a lot of our Officers here in the Region as well as in headquarters. My understanding after speaking with them is this: to bow angle for a carp and throw it back into the lake is wasting it. To bonk a pikeminnow in the head and throw it on the bank is wasting it. Wasting is intentional/on purpose waste of a food or game fish. What you do with the fish after you remove it from the lake is basically up to you. Whether you put it in your garden or whatever.

Yes, there is Officer discretion just like in most fish and wildlife issues.

When I said that they were here to stay and manage for them, it is acknowledging them as part of management issues. I was not saying do nothing about them because they are here to stay.

We do use grass carp in areas where they cannot escape for public and private waters with excessive aquatic vegetation issues. They can be a real handy tool.

I think it's unfortunate that there is a perception out there that we are trying to purposely deceive the public. It can be a difficult balance between what we try to determine is good for the resource and what the public wants as far as recreation. It may seem easy on the outside looking in, however, it isn't. We do our best with the resources we have.

We take public input, we encourage people to contact us by phone, email or in person with questions. That was part of the reason I joined this forum so long ago was to be a means for the public to ask questions. We have often taken input from the public and made some changes they wanted. We can't always do that, but we most certainly look into each request.

I hope I have shed some light. If not, I'll try again.

[racfish]

Darn it Stacie. Work is no excuse for not answering right away. I'm teasing you of course. You've always been the fisherpersons friend. I remember you from other sites as well. Youve been a good friend and excellent allie in the game of fishing. I for one thank you very much for participating in our discussions.Youre truly a person that actually makes me feel good about our state.

[iwalton]

As always, thanks for posting on these forums Stacie! Super informative!

[iwalton]

AA (and anyone else interested), I did run into an article discussing the amount of smolts eaten by walleye and smallies as compared to northern pikeminnow:

"“About 70 percent of the pikeminnow diet is salmonids,” he said. “With smallmouth bass and walleyes, only about 20 percent of their diet is fish and only 8 to 10 percent of the fish are salmonids."-Russell Porter, Pacific States Marine Fisheries Commission senior manager

Link

[Stacie Kelsey]

Thanks guys!

As far as the predation information:

The report was "Estimated Loss of Juvenile Salmonids to Predation by Northern Squawfish, Walleyes, and Smallmouth Bass in John Day Reservior, Columbia River", 1991 by Rieman, Bruce et al.

The mean annual loss of juvenile salmonids is 2.7 million. Northern Squawfish account for 78%, walleyes 13% and smallmouth bass 9%.

[bionic_one]

So the study is nearly 20 years old? Wonder what the numbers are like now that the pikeminnow program has been running for a while. Also, haven't smallmouth bass populations increased?

[Anonymous]

Oregon has been doing additional indexing work. I have a co-worker digging up that report and I'll post it as soon as I can.

Smallmouth and Walleye populations have both increased since that time.

stace

[Anglinarcher]

I wasn't aware of the issue with Spraque, haven't (unfortunately) fished Eastern Washington lakes (yet).

"...leaving fish remains in shallow water after removing the normally eatable portions, or leaving any whole or portion of non-game or invasive species in such a manner which would permit floating or drifting to the surface, shall considered littering."

I like it.

Thanks for posting the info about Walleyes, it's a start at least. I wish someone would do some current hard data studies and get 'em published. The BPA program of bounty fishing for pikeminnow has been pretty extensive (over 3.5 million removed!), I wonder if they are still one of the major predators to smolts in the big C.

Thanks, I hope Stacie looks at this and takes this to the next step (with a slight correction in grammar). Just because Pikeminnow are considered sport fish due to a bounty does not mean that they have value to us. Additionally, just because carp have a commercial fishery does not preclude a change of status. The Status Quo does not need to remain.

I'll respond to the Walleye and SMB in another post.

[Anglinarcher]

......I'm not really understanding what answers some of you are wanting from me...............I think it's unfortunate that there is a perception out there that we are trying to purposely deceive the public. It can be a difficult balance between what we try to determine is good for the resource and what the public wants as far as recreation. It may seem easy on the outside looking in, however, it isn't. We do our best with the resources we have.

We take public input, we encourage people to contact us by phone, email or in person with questions. That was part of the reason I joined this forum so long ago was to be a means for the public to ask questions. We have often taken input from the public and made some changes they wanted. We can't always do that, but we most certainly look into each request.

I hope I have shed some light. If not, I'll try again.

Sorry Stacie, in my 10 years of living in this state, I have observed several times where the input from the majority is ignored for the politics of the minority, especially regarding Fish and Wildlife management issues. Sprague, Carp, Spokane River, etc., etc., etc; I do not base my observations or opinions on hearsay or others comments, but on my own interaction with the state. As I see it, the possible options are limited to the following:

1) Politics
2) Deceit
3) Incompetence

A friend of mine was going to school some years ago to become a fisheries manager, with goals of working in Washington. A professor of his told him to look for another state because "qualified" and "honest" managers lasted less then two years in Washington before they were run off by politics. I truly hope that was a misquote, but I wonder.

Because it is said that politics creates strange bedfellows, your feel that we suspect deceit would therefore follow from my first claim. Time and time again we are told one thing where logic and facts cry loudly against what we are officially told. A case in point is Sprague, another case in point is the Upper Spokane River. Now, first I want to point out that I prefer a catch and release fishery for the river section, but the claim by WDF&W, as well as other governmental agencies, is that the Selective Rules, Catch and Release fishery is due to contamination. I find it strange that neither Idaho nor the Federal Government seem to believe this is a problem in Lake Coeur d' Alene, nor the Spokane river to the Idaho State Line. It seems strange that even Washington seems to agree with Idaho and the Federal Government below Upriver Dam, but, for some strange reason, from the Idaho State Line to Upriver Dam, we have a problem. For those that want to know, the river does not change character between Idaho and Washington and Upriver Dam cannot filter out contaminants better then one of the largest natural lakes in the West, Lake Coeur d' Alene. If this is not politics, and it is not deceit, then it must be Incompetence.

First, I agree that your resources are limited. If we doubled the state license fees you would not see a single dime of it. We have a general fund state where money is received and placed into a general pot. The legislature dolls out of that pot as they see fit, not proportionally to how it is received. Washington is not the only state that does this, but this is one reason that your resources are limited, and always will be. Still, there is a difference between being resource poor and incompetent. Every time I hear a lie from the State WDF&W, especially when I hear the cover stories about Sprague, the Upper Spokane River, etc., I realize that they are trying to cover their incompetence by Deceit, taking us full circle again.

In summary, "it's unfortunate that there is a perception out there that we are trying to purposely deceive the public", but it is more unfortunate that it is not just a perception.

[Anglinarcher]

Oregon has been doing additional indexing work. I have a co-worker digging up that report and I'll post it as soon as I can.

Smallmouth and Walleye populations have both increased since that time.

stace

Stacie, I'm interested in this one as well. I can see a time when Walleye and SMB have increased in such populations, and where the bounty system on Pikeminnow has sufficiently reduced numbers, thus negating the potential benefit of Walleye and SMB.

At that time, I would hope our fisheries managers would encourage a much more liberal and aggressive Walleye and SMB limit. Unfortunately, convincing fishermen to keep SMB may be hard.

Case in point, I love Walleye, just cant eat enough of them. I fished Roosevelt last Saturday and brought home a limit of nice eaters, but, and I don't know how to explain this, I released every SMB I caught. The State has liberalized the limit to 10 SMB (only one over 14"), but I could have had 9 fish at 13.5" and one over 18" pretty easily. Still, due to the catch and release mentality over Bass in general, one I too have subscribed to, I could not bring myself to keep the fish even though I know it would be to the betterment of the fishery.

I know of no means to remove Walleye or SMB from the Columbia and Snake River systems. No poison exist that will remove them without removing every desirable species as well. Additionally, the amount of poison probably would take 50 years to accumulate (harvested wild in South America, it is not a Laboratory chemical). In this case, educating the fishing population may be the only viable means available to us.

[YellowBear]

Stacie,
Who exactly, benefits from a commercial Carp fishery?
I would also like to ask, were have the Walleye and Smallmouth populations increased in the last 5 years?
My info shows the size of the Smallmouth has dropped and the size and numbers of Walleye has also gone down.

[Anglinarcher]

Stacie, one question you have not answered yet. blufin loui asked the question on July 22, 2010 9:41 PM, "...the lowly pike-minnow has been a mainstay bait in the past for many fishermen. Since the pike-minnow is utilized by commercial fishing, can it still be utilized as "cut" bait after the reclassification?"

I'll go one step further, can Carp be utilized as 'cut" bait?

You indicated that what we did with them when we got home was our business, but what if we catch them on the water and cut them up for bait at that time? The same would apply to Crayfish bait, can they be utilized as bait?