Tribal gil nets are in the water in MA 10

[BARCHASER]

I just put my Seahawk in dry storage at Edmonds Marina today. Due to getting the boat ready, signing papers, launching it and paying some $, I didn't start fishing until 10:15. Good day of hooking but not so good catching, by myself I hooked 8, caught 2 keepers and one wild.

This is true, about 1:00 this tribal gillnetter shows up about 1/4 south of the MA 10 border and proceeds to run out a half mile gillnet running east to west, right in the middle of all the sport boats. I've seen this happen before. There is a lot of Coho around and our red brothers are active.

To see if this guy was poaching, I looked at the List of Approved Fisheries, page 28, and all it sez is week beginning 9/3, "fishing schedule shall be set consistent with the MST Agreement (1983)."

I have no idea what that means. You guys might take a look at the LOAF since it is the only place you will find any info on when/where you will see their nets. Some will want to fish Lake Wa when it opens. Be quick, you will only have about 5 days before the nets go in.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/tribal/2017-18agreement.pdf

[BARCHASER]

I did send an email to WDFW regarding this incident. I was pretty sure this tribal gillnet guy was within his rights but thought I'd report it anyway. This is a cut/paste on the response I got back from WDFW, which sez a lot about how things actually work (or don't work).


Thank you for contacting WDFW! Unfortunately we don’t have jurisdiction over the tribes so for any updates on their netting seasons you would have to contact the tribe.

[The Quadfather]

I am the last guy on here to ever get worked up about tribal fishing, but.... reading the WDFW's response to you makes me wonder if this means that the tribes have no one but themselves to police there fishing?
I mean, wouldn't you at least (think) tjat the WDFW knows what the tribes netting schedual is?
Not at all trying to turn the thread South, but kinda weird response from the State.

[Larry3215]

They are an independent Nation. They have their own police and the tribal equivalent of WDFW. Call the tribal offices to file a complaint or the Feds - Bureau of Indian Affairs, NOAA?, etc. The state of Wa can do nothing - by law.

If they were endangering other boats, then the Coast Guard would have a say in that - but they are Feds too.

[The Quadfather]

My comment wasn't as much meant to ask who is policing the tribe. (Even though looking back, I kind of said that. I obviously understand the sovereign nation part. I just think it is odd for the State to say they have no idea what the netting schedule is.

[Larry3215]

I tend to agree with you, but I suppose they figure why waste time and money worrying about something they have zero ability to do anything about.

[BARCHASER]

There is a lot to not like. Biggest thing is the lack of openness in the whole thing. Negotiations are all secret. We get bean counted to death, everybody knows how many fish we get and the number is over counted IMO. But it is supposed to be a 50% split. I have never seen the numbers and I doubt the Feds, WDFW or anybody really knows how many fish the tribes get. If they know then why not release the numbers?

The only body equal to the Tribes is the Dept of the Interior which contains the BIA and all the rest. I don't see that they actually do anything though. If you don't like this situation either, send an email to the DOI. I did, its easy to do that. There is a "contact button" on their website.

They will send you back an email acknowledging your email. I have a copy of their acknowledgement and my email but I don't want to post it since it might cause a big furor. This isn't ethnic. I see the local Tribes as a rich and politically powerful special interest group with all kinds of PR people and Lobbyists.

[jrodell27]

.


Thank you for contacting WDFW! Unfortunately we don’t have jurisdiction over the tribes so for any updates on their netting seasons you would have to contact the tribe.

Classic WDFW. Because calling the tribes as a sport fisherman will really make any impact in the enforcement?

[Larry3215]

The bottom line here is that there is no "enforcement" or monitoring or anything else that WDFW can do. Absolutely nothing. They have no authority over anything the tribes do. Zero. They cant even give them a call and ask them to do anything because that is outside proper channels and not their job, not their responsibility and they would just cause trouble if they even tried. They are legally barred from interfering in Indian affairs in any way at all. Period.

Im not a fan of WDFW, but they are not in the wrong in this case. Its not their fault in any way shape or form.

[riverhunter]

Unfortunately Larry3215 is right. While I don't agree with the practice it's nothing to really get worked about or put the blame on wdfw as they can do absolutely nothing unless the boldt decision is ever turned which it won't. Also it doesn't say we get to have half the fish in only states the surplus resources are split 50/50 between both of us. If we don't catch 50% but they do that is no ones fault as we can't predict how many we actually catch. I am not defending the tribes as I also wish there was something we can do to slow down how many they are allowed but rather stating that if we want half our share we need to work hard for it. Possibly harder then they do and hopefully we can catch our limits every time we go out but we know that's not the case either. Sorry I went in all different directions just my opinion on this

[spokey9]

Sadly Larry's right. That's big reason why the current co-management model is failing. The tribes have the ability to slow or shut down our seasons with claims of treaty rights or threats of lawsuits. If the dept tries that (even for an in season run size adjustment) they get blown off. Really only the feds or public perception can do anything. Since the most govt agencies don't want to be called racist I doubt they will do much on our behalf. And as soon as something starts to chip away at the stewards of the environment persona, you see a ton of money being spent on media campaigns to distract the public at large. That's why baywolf's petition to open the nof meetings is so important. Just that would bring about a fairer system and more accountability for all parties. Just my opinion though lol.

[Onmygame]

Unfortunately Larry3215 is right. While I don't agree with the practice it's nothing to really get worked about or put the blame on wdfw as they can do absolutely nothing unless the boldt decision is ever turned which it won't. Also it doesn't say we get to have half the fish in only states the surplus resources are split 50/50 between both of us. If we don't catch 50% but they do that is no ones fault as we can't predict how many we actually catch. I am not defending the tribes as I also wish there was something we can do to slow down how many they are allowed but rather stating that if we want half our share we need to work hard for it. Possibly harder then they do and hopefully we can catch our limits every time we go out but we know that's not the case either. Sorry I went in all different directions just my opinion on this

Actually, the verbiage states 'UP TO' 50% of the harvestable (beyond escapement) fish - for BOTH sides.

onmygame

[Larry3215]

Sadly Larry's right. That's big reason why the current co-management model is failing. The tribes have the ability to slow or shut down our seasons with claims of treaty rights or threats of lawsuits. If the dept tries that (even for an in season run size adjustment) they get blown off. Really only the feds or public perception can do anything. Since the most govt agencies don't want to be called racist I doubt they will do much on our behalf. And as soon as something starts to chip away at the stewards of the environment persona, you see a ton of money being spent on media campaigns to distract the public at large. That's why baywolf's petition to open the nof meetings is so important. Just that would bring about a fairer system and more accountability for all parties. Just my opinion though lol.

I think its a noble effort and a good cause, but basically hopeless.

Who is the petition being sent to? No one at the state level has any authority at all. No one, from the Gov on down, can do anything but 'ask' Indian affairs, NOAA, etc to look into changing things.

Unfortunately, not gonna happen - at least not this century.

I think we need to focus on what we have a slight chance of accomplishing - which is work to cut down commercial fishing and work on treaty's with Canada etc to reduce the impact where we can. That means fighting politicians who take money to protect the commercial guys and wont work hard enough to get some concessions from Canada.

I see that as loooong odds too, but its better than the zero chance we have of forcing a change in the tribal practices.

[spokey9]

Actually if there's enough political interest generated, the dept/state could institute open meetings and then prepare the legal defense for the following suit by the nwic. The sovereign government argument to hide the talks by the tribes shouldn't hold water in court, especially since they're tasked to co-manage a public resource with state. The real issue is getting enough people on that petition and calling their reps. Without the politicians thinking about vote numbers they might lose by opposing an open nof (or at least a real time video feed), they won't even think about it.

Open meetings in itself isn't enough though. It's just a first step in making both the dept & the tribes responsible for what's negotiated.

[DavidA]

At the risk of invoking the ire of many, allow me to state that I disagree with much of what has been said. First of all, I think WDFW did you a disservice with the response that was provided and I would be very surprised if a repeat call to a different person at WDFW would get you an answer anywhere near that unsatisfactory. Yes the tribes are somewhat independent, but not completely so. They are Co-Managers. Equal. If either side believes there is a violation occurring, they have the opportunity to, and frequently do, check up on possible infractions, gather evidence and present it to the other side, thus ensuring each side has the opportunity to harvest up to 50% of the agreed to harvest. Unfortunately, when the tribes exercise their rights, the default assumption is that they are fishing illegally and the WDFW must often field many calls that have no merit. An area may be closed to recreational fishing for a number of reasons. That doesn't mean that non-tribal commercial fisheries there, or tribal fisheries there, are fishing illegally. An effort is actually made to conduct commercial and tribal fisheries on days when recreational fisheries do not occur, to minimize conflict. Of course this can't and doesn't always occur, however efforts are regularly made to accomplish this.

At the very least, your response from WDFW should have listed the tribes party to that agreement so that you might follow up with them. The tribes are no more in favor of over harvest or illegal harvest, than WDFW is. Busting illegal harvest is a win for tribal and non-tribal interests. Based on the marine area of interest, it shouldn't be difficult to figure out which tribes could have been fishing there. Call their enforcement and politely ask if their tribe in conducting a fishery in the area. Tribal fisheries enforcement officers go through at least as much training as state fisheries officers and are just as committed to their jobs. I know that a large number of them are not tribal members themselves and it is a huge disservice to them to simply assume that they have been hired to look the other way.

I am not saying that I am naive enough to think that all tribal harvest is legal and hope that no one is implying that all non-tribal harvest is legal. The report on illegal recreational crab fishing on the Fourth of July demonstrated that. The common thread here is that this issue involves human beings, all flawed and some willing to cheat the system for personal gain.

This thread is titled 'Tribal gillnets', and the lead report refers to our "red brothers". Nowhere do I see any basis for this assumption. If it is simply the use of gillnets that makes this 'tribal', I'd like to suggest that a poacher needn't restrict himself to legal gear. And if it was in fact tribal, I also see no basis for assuming that it was illegal, yet the conversation has evolved into: an inability to regulate the tribes, and the ineffectiveness of state and tribal enforcement and politicians and money.

Allow me to suggest that this thread is based on much venting, and has little basis on the original incident. And now to head for cover!

Good luck out there everyone.

[Jake Dogfish]

That may be how it's supposed to work. Even a few years ago before Unsworth it was more of a team process between wdfw and the tribes.
The current process at north of falcon is we present our fisheries to the tribes an they say "yes" or "no". They don't show us anything, and are the final authority for our fisheries.
We are fishing where they allow us to fish. Which does not include the Skokomish, Puyallup on certain days, etc.
If they didn't want us fishing in Area 10, or if there is any conflicts with sport fishers they will shut us down. Hardly co-management.
That being said if someone is doing something dangerous call 911. They don't discriminate.

[spokey9]

This ain't on unsworth, the deterioration of the fair negotiations has been going on for years. The first time the tribes demanded concessions or would use the feds to get fishery approvals and the state caved was the turning point. That was prior to unsworth, although he ain't exactly standing tall for rec fisheries either.

[Onmygame]

David A - a well thought out and much appreciated post.

Jake Dogfish - not sure where you are getting the info that you are stating as facts - however the fact remains, (and yes I have this from a WDFW salmon fisheries biologist in MY family) that the tribes have been the only ones proposing a moratorium on salmon fishing across the board for the past 3 years, and that the WDFW won't even look at the proposal due to non native commercial concerns as well as fear of sport fisherman backlash - even at the risk of losing the fishery altogether.

The tribes do not decide when and where we fish any more than either party decides unilaterally when and where they fish.

Co-managing is just that - and heavy on the 'co' with a bit of 'mis' before the managing - meaning little gets agreed upon lately due to two entirely different sets of priorities. The tribes want to sustain the salmon runs, and the state wants to keep everyone else pacified - albeit temporarily.

onmygame

[Jake Dogfish]

David A - a well thought out and much appreciated post.

Jake Dogfish - not sure where you are getting the info that you are stating as facts - however the fact remains, (and yes I have this from a WDFW salmon fisheries biologist in MY family) that the tribes have been the only ones proposing a moratorium on salmon fishing across the board for the past 3 years, and that the WDFW won't even look at the proposal due to non native commercial concerns as well as fear of sport fisherman backlash - even at the risk of losing the fishery altogether.

The tribes do not decide when and where we fish any more than either party decides unilaterally when and where they fish.

Co-managing is just that - and heavy on the 'co' with a bit of 'mis' before the managing - meaning little gets agreed upon lately due to two entirely different sets of priorities. The tribes want to sustain the salmon runs, and the state wants to keep everyone else pacified - albeit temporarily.

onmygame

Thanks for the information that's the first I have ever heard that.
Would this moratorium be similar to last year, when we had no NOF agreement? Fishing was closed to sport and tribes fished anyway?

[BARCHASER]

Everybody has their own opinion. I kinda feel sorry for the WDFW, it must be frustrating for them. I've heard some stories, about Tribal behavior at some of the meetings with WDFW. I don't want to repeat them because I don't know if the stories are true or not.

I've given up on the State. Lots of talk about so and so in the legislature said this or that but nothing happens.

The only control over the Tribes is the federal government, one sovereign against another. I did send an email to the Dept of the Interior last March. Easy to do just go to their website. Here is a copy of my email and their acknowledgement. I know, I know, it prob wont do any good, but if they get several hundred of these it might make a difference. I'm sure not an expert on this so some may debate my views, and if you want to flame me, go ahead. I cut out my full name and email address.


Thank you for submitting your feedback.

Name: Gary

E-mail Address:

Subject: Puget Sound salmon fisheries, Judge Bodlt decision and tribal relations

Feedback:
The relationship between sports fishers, the Tribes and the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) is hopelessly broken. The original treaty was a Federal Treaty and the Judge Boldt decision was made by a federal judge. The WDFW is stuck in the impossible position of negotiating with a sovereign nation, the Tribes. The State has no power over the Tribes. I don't know if you people are following this mess. Negotiations with the Tribes should be done by another sovereign nation, the Federal Government, specifically your Department. The federal government has not done its job.

The original Boldt decision envisioned a "fair share" between Tribal and non Tribal fishers. There is no "fair share" at present. Sports fishers are bean counted for every salmon we catch but there is no accounting over salmon the Tribes catch. Negotiations between the WDFW and the Tribes are done in secret.

Your Department should take over all negotiations with the Tribes and these negotiations have to be done in the open. Negotiations have to be done between two sovereign entities. You are not in compliance with the goals of the Boldt. Your Department is under new management and this is the time to fix this mess. If you cant fix it then just call a halt to all salmon fishing in treaty waters. We are all fed up.