The Never Ending Catch and Release Debate

[Mike Carey]

...is on again. Is it possible for catch and keep vs. catch and release to co-exist? Is there any common ground we can agree on? Or will our passions get so over-heated that we fail to treat each other with respect and dignity?

I'll start by saying that I generally catch and release, mainly because I don't eat that much fish - I always catch enough for myself and my family isn't big on fish. I have been fortunate to have had a wonderful mentor in my bass fishing exploits, Bob Johansen, who taught by example, but at the same time, understood and did not criticize when I did want to bring home a few bass. He showed me the benefit of keeping the dinks and releasing the bigger fish to be caught another day. I’ll be grateful to him always for that education. That said I can probably count on two hands the number of bass I’ve kept the past three years (and all under the 12” size limit). Frankly, for freshwater eating fish why keep a bass when we have all these delicious perch swimming around? Perch are much better tasting fish IMHO.

I have wondered this – we recently saw the muskie anglers petition and get a size limit increase on muskies to 50”. If they can do this, why can’t bass clubs and anglers come together to change the slot rules on bass, perhaps make any bass over 15” be release only? There is a heck of a lot more bass anglers than muskie anglers. Just a thought. Imagine having a bass fishery that was protected by law rather than ethical code? We have special regs for certain trout lakes – how about special regs for certain bass lakes? That might be something for bass clubs to explore and work towards, if we really want to see this state’s bass fishery thrive.

[bob johansen]

Thanks Mike! And, I've seen Mike release some very nice fish -- most recently at Kitsap lake, his record "Frog Fish." I have killed very few bass during the past 40 years of bass fishing. I have however, kept 2 or 3 small fish during fishing trips in the fall where I'm hooking 30-40 small fish a day -- and then mostly when there is some hook damage. I agree mostly agree with Mike about the need for some changes in the rules. Different lakes used to have special rules and I think that should be a consideration. The one thing, I would not agree with Mike is that I think an angler should be able keep a record fish if he so chooses. I'm not sure what I would do if I caught a state record bass -- And, probably will never have to make that decision. I would hate to kill the fish and would not want to have it mounted but I would like to have it officially recorded and I'm not sure if that could be accomplished and keep the fish healthy enough to be released.

[Anonymous]

Lake Sammamish = keep NO largemouth regardless of size. For a few years anyway. Small Mouth = Haven't decided yet. Same for Lake Washington.

In general = keep what is legal and no cheating. Will think more on that for now.

I can count on 1 hand how many bass I've kept over the past 3 years. Before that I've probably kept 3 fish over the past 15 plus years. The last time I kept a mess of bass was in '87, or a year or 2 earlier. That was the last year I fished from the Chrysler boat and sold it to my brother in '89 after I bought a bigger boat in '88.

Perch are too smal and you'd have to have too many to have enough for a decent meal. I don't want to clean that many fish, been there, done that.

Trout I don't like the taste over the past few years, so don't keep any, anymore. Too soft and 'muddy' from the warm lakes in the summer. Shallow fish while fishing for bass. Maybe the deep fish are harder - non mushy and maybe taste better too. Don't know, I don't fish for trout.

[Mike Carey]

I guess that would be an exception - how would we ever know what the record fish is without keeping it? Hmmm, this slot limit stuff is trickier than I thought.

[AaronE]

I guess that would be an exception - how would we ever know what the record fish is without keeping it? Hmmm, this slot limit stuff is trickier than I thought.

At one point many years back Georgia entertained the idea of a cash catch card. You could keep any bass under 14", up to 3 a day, and any fish in the slot of 15-23" had to be CnR. Any fish caught over 23" could be kept if you had a cash catch card - meaning, you pay extra to keep that biggun. And 24" bass aren't that uncommon in GA - it's essentially an 8.5 pounder, which is an absolute hawg in any state but caught pretty easily. My personal best in GA was over 12 pounds and that fish was a monster - and still small by most Florida strain standards.

It went through a public vote, was approved, went through the state committee for finalization and was killed in the state legislature since some representatives wanted the money to go into infrastructure services (ie, to justify a tax cut on small businesses) whereas the others wanted the money to go back into the State Interior Dept (which is where it should go, period). It never passed as a result. Politics ruined it.

And if politics could ruin it in Georgia, I'd hate to see what Olympia could do to it hehe....

[Amx]

It is my understanding that a person cannot transport a live fish. So the fish would have to be killed, transported to someplace to be weighted on a certified scale, & witnessed. So there goes the possibility of reliesing the fish alive. Unless the regulation has been changed sometime in the past few years.

If the fish is kept alive, and the Dept. of Wildlife finds out, I believe they can deny the record. I think that has been done before in some state. You'd think the Dept. could figure out a way to allow the fish to be kept alive so it can be returned to the lake. But I'm sure they'd worry about the fish being transported to a private lake instead.

[fishaholictaz]

1 thing I would say if you are indeed not wanting to offend people is take live at the lake pictures:-" I myself don't care to see big dead bass..
I understand that people fish to eat what they catch.. I say to those people pay attention to what you are doing and like stated above keep a few small ones from lakes with healthy populations... You can eat fish without damaging the population if you are careful:cheers:

We got to stick together as fisherman and do what is best for the next generation..........

[tagwatson360]

I don't think any bass fisherman or fisherwoman on this site would argue that catch and keep anglers harvesting the occasional limit of under slot bass is detrimental to our fisheries. In fact, most fisheries can benefit from the slot limit only if some smaller bass are harvested.

My observation is the passionate debate rears its ugly head when anglers are illegally harvesting bass within the slot limit and keeping the big bass over 17". Most knowledgable bass anglers in this State know that the growth rates of our Northern Strain largemouth are much slower than in other parts of the Country due to the short growing season (water temps above 55 degrees). Depending on the fishery, some of the largemouth over 17 inches are over a decade old. Our bass fisheries are much more fragile than many people realize. The anglers that understand what a valuable resource we have, and the fragility of our lakes on ponds, are often the anglers who are most passionate about the catch and release of big bass.

To answer your question, Mike, theoretically we could reach a common ground. Realistically, however, it will likely never happen. There are a number of (what I consider responsible) catch and keep anglers out there who harvest legal limits of smaller bass and understand that the release of the big, prime breeding stock female bass is vital to the future success of our fisheries. This is the common ground I believe we are all striving for. In this instance you have the best of both worlds; C&R group is happy and the group that chooses to keep some fish for the dinner table is satiated. Unfortunately, there is a small percentage of anglers that have a complete disregard (whether real or perceived) for the future of the resource. It is this small group that gets the C&R guys and gals so heated.

Many of us share the same passion for catch and release as our dear friend, Sparkalicious. He chose to use some colorful expletives that may not have been family friendly, but you can tell by the overwhelming support he has received that the vast majority of the bass anglers on this site understand the importance of catch and release. Sparky exercised his 1st amendment right about C&R, knowing full well he would receive a suspension. I understand that some of the language used is not appropriate for this forum but it is because of anglers like Sparky that our bass fisheries have a fighting chance for future generations to enjoy.

[hewesfisher]

I have wondered this – we recently saw the muskie anglers petition and get a size limit increase on muskies to 50”. If they can do this, why can’t bass clubs and anglers come together to change the slot rules on bass, perhaps make any bass over 15” be release only? There is a heck of a lot more bass anglers than muskie anglers. Just a thought. Imagine having a bass fishery that was protected by law rather than ethical code? We have special regs for certain trout lakes – how about special regs for certain bass lakes? That might be something for bass clubs to explore and work towards, if we really want to see this state’s bass fishery thrive.

You make an interesting proposition Mike, but let me throw this in the mix. While I don't particularly agree with the 50" minimum for Tiger Muskie, the Muskie enthusiasts managed to get the state to agree with their position. They have one huge factor in their favor - their target species is sterile and cannot reproduce. The whole 50" vs 36" thing was just to satisfy the sport angler because it sure doesn't have anything to do with brood stock like it does with all of our other species. LMB and SMB, however, readily spawn in most of WA's warm water lakes.

I know this can be a topic for heated debate, but I don't see why a fishery has to be managed for sport only, and that's really what it boils down to with a C&R only or restrictive slot limit rule. At that point, I see no reason to fish, I don't just fish for the sport of it, I also fish to enjoy it as table fare. By eliminating, or severely curtailing, that option to create a trophy fishery simply goes against the grain in my mind. There will never be a "real" trophy bass fishery here in WA because the water conditions aren't "ideally suited" to growing the hawgs of the south, but, if we restrict fishing to catch and release only then maybe, someday, one might grow large enough to be a contender?

I enjoy fishing for multi species, and while many say they don't like the taste of bass, I find them to be just as tasty as other spiny rays and sure don't have a problem putting them on the table. :bball:

Maybe a few lakes with the most ideal water conditions could be made C&R only or a more restrictive slot imposed, but IMO, there's no need for it to be a statewide species thing with LMB.

With that said, I don't have a problem with people who C&R fish only, I really don't. My wife and I do a lot of the same thing as well on occasion. One thing is for certain, us "catch and keep" folks sure get a lot of "heat" for doing what we are legally entitled to.

Well, there's my $.02.

[MaxExp82]

Tagwatson360 hit the nail on the head.

Its the fisherman keeping the "trophy" fish that get C&R people heated, including myself. For all the reasons Tag already said, It takes to long for a fish like that to grow to be eaten, when theres tons of smaller bass and millions of perch to be had.
I know some private lakes that are heavily over populated with small stunted bass that would be perfect for eating, i will gladly share !

PS: hewefisher , We could never compare our trophy fish in Wa to other states, but cant we have our "own" trophies? Why cant we have some great bass fishing in Washington at many lakes? Im all for a tweak to the slot rules, maybe even one like No Bass over 15" may be kept, and maybe increase the harvest limits. That would maintain the quality size fish, and people wanting table fair could catch more of the smaller ones.

anyways, my two cents is Release Large bass, Keep small bass, if you want a fish fry catch a mess of perch and crappie.
or better yet, eat Trout :-)

[Anonymous]

excellent responses.

Tag, I would also add a category not mentioned which I think conversations like this help to educate - those that haven't really given the topic much thought and aren't aware of the loss of a quality bass. I put myself in that category. Years ago, if I had caught a big bass and it was legal, I would have happily brought him home and ate it. But as the years progressed and I became better informed of all the view points, I came to the conclusion that I LOVE big bass. They are a beautiful creature and a worthy fish to pursue and release for others to enjoy. I will give you betting odds that if we strive to educate not humiliate, we'll have those anglers that never gave it much thought come over to the catch and release side. BUT if we decide to lose control of our emotions and berate, insult and hurt, we will harden people's attitudes against our position. In any debate I think taking the higher ground offers the most chance of changing minds and hearts. And the bottom line to me is when you humiliate an angler that maybe never gave the topic much thought, and by that humiliation cause them to say "screw him, I'll keep a big bass if I want to", then you have in effect by your negative actions caused the next big bass's demise. Put another way, Sparky's going off the deep end may actually cause MORE harm then good. Sure, all the hard core bass anglers stand up and cheer, but that's not the crowd who's behavior you're trying to change, right? It's one thing to show passion, it's another to cross that line that hardens attitudes against your position. Let's not confuse "1st Amendment Rights" and uncontrolled passion with intelligent dialog.

[tagwatson360]

Very good points, Mike, and I couldn't agree more. Educating all anglers on the benefits of C&R should be our goal, first and foremost.

I'm sure our good friend, Sparky, is out catching and releasing some big hawgs as we speak.

[Mike Carey]

:thumleft:

[Blackmouth]

Just because it is legal, doesn't make it right

And who cares if people get fired up about the debate on keeping/releasing big bass. A little healthy debate never hurt anyone. I don't know what sparky said, I don't know sparky nor have I been around here long enough to know his personality

If remarks are not insulting or degarding, than I see no point in censoring the debate. Let people argue. Let both sides be spoke and heard.

People should educate themselves BEFORE they go fishing. They make us take a test to get a permit to drive a vehicle, heck I'm all for making everyone take a test to get a fishing license. Sounds stupid, but it wouldn't hurt. People shouldn't be clueless out there with such a valuable resource that is impacted by our decisions and actions. I see more bozo's on the water when I'm fishing these days than ANYWHERE ELSE.....

[Nik]

isn't selective harvest supposed to be the happy medium? knowledgeable anglers, keeping fish that are both legal AND not harmful/sometimes beneficial to the fishery? people are always going to keep fish, so the best thing we can do is educate them about the lifespans/growth rates, etc. and make them realize that letting that big female go means they will have their tasty 10 inchers to take home for years to come, and if they do take her it's going to be 10-15 years before she is replaced in the lake. i've had several conversations with fishermen who have the catch it keep it mentality, and just about everytime that one discussion is all it takes to make them realize letting the larger fish go is the right thing to do.

[tagwatson360]

A test to get a fishing license? I really like that idea, Blackmouth. I know there would be plenty of logistical challenges, but I think it sounds excellent in theory.

Just because it is legal, doesn't make it right

And who cares if people get fired up about the debate on keeping/releasing big bass. A little healthy debate never hurt anyone. I don't know what sparky said, I don't know sparky nor have I been around here long enough to know his personality

If remarks are not insulting or degarding, than I see no point in censoring the debate. Let people argue. Let both sides be spoke and heard.

People should educate themselves BEFORE they go fishing. They make us take a test to get a permit to drive a vehicle, heck I'm all for making everyone take a test to get a fishing license. Sounds stupid, but it wouldn't hurt. People shouldn't be clueless out there with such a valuable resource that is impacted by our decisions and actions. I see more bozo's on the water when I'm fishing these days than ANYWHERE ELSE.....

[iPodrodder]

And who cares if people get fired up about the debate on keeping/releasing big bass. A little healthy debate never hurt anyone. I don't know what sparky said, I don't know sparky nor have I been around here long enough to know his personality

If remarks are not insulting or degarding, than I see no point in censoring the debate. Let people argue. Let both sides be spoke and heard.

Sparky's comments about C&R included some language that warranted some disciplinary action. The C&R bass guys are fired up over Sparky's passion for the sport, and others are offended by the language or the contrary views. The reason for this thread is Mike's reminder to keep it family friendly and appropriate. If it had been a civil debate like you envisioned, then we definitely would have let it go.

[Anglinarcher]

Mike, if this was not you, I would think it was a troll out trying to stir the pot again.

Good points have been made, but forgive me if I think out loud for a minute.

In an ideal world, we would have fisheries biologist that determine what is healthy and sustainable for our lakes. Now, in Washington, we have biologist, and politicians. Is it your position that either the politicians are determining what is healthy or is it your position that the State biologist are incompetent?:scratch: Note that the "you" means all of us reading this, not necessarily a specific person.

For years the State Wide General Bass limit was the same for LMB and SMB as I recall, but now the state has almost put a bounty on SMB. Think about it, 10 SMB, with only one over 14" I believe; seems like either they think there are too many or ........................... So back to the last paragraph, is this the result of biologist or politicians?

Next, in Spokane and the surrounding area, the fisheries people openly have total disdain for anything warm water. Fish Lake, the lake where the State Record Tiger Trout was caught last year, would have been killed out because it had "warm water fish" in it were it not for that Record fish being caught. If our Eastern Washington lake has warm water fish in it, it is not because they wanted them there. So, back to the question two paragraphs before. Sprague may be an exception to my claim above - they did plant the Bass and Crappie back in, but not very many of them.

Now, consider this. We are not the only State this far north, with this general elevation. Heck sakes, they have bass into Central and Eastern Canada, and they are even native. Why are we still trying to reinvent the wheel, trying to come up with new regulations, when states much more experienced in this matter have been working on this problem for a long time? Are all of the States, and providences of Canada, cursed by politicians or poor biologist setting rules?

OK, enough thinking out loud.

I propose that we do indeed need to educate; education is the key. I propose first that painting the solution with a broad brush is not the answer, it is part of the problem. It may be the fishermen that need the most education, and you had better have sufficiently open minds to accept the possibility that selective harvest may be necessary for a healthy fishery. You might also find that in many cases C&R is the best way to go.:thumleft: :study: :study: :study:

I propose that we need to reconcile the difference between our desires and the goals of the Biologist. It matters little what we, as fishermen want, if our Biologist with their power, do not agree. We either catch the fish and keep them, or they will kill them out. This has been done in Badger Lake south of Cheney, and now that the Bass are back in Badger, it will happen again. Note that the Walleye fishermen found this to be true with Sprague as well. This reconciliation may be education, or we may need to seek help from the politicians (ouch, did that come out of my mouth).

I support selective rules for special lakes, and I support such rules for Bass. I can see making some of the better prospects C&R only, or only one fish over a specific size. Still, it is my experience that this does not work as well as you think. I know of one lake in South East Idaho where they did this - only one Bass over 24" was legal. The Bass never got that big, and the longer they kept the regulations on this way, the fewer people fished for the bass. Eventually they ended up killing off the lake because of stunted fish (so keeping some fish can actually lead to a healthy fishery). I know of another lake in that area where the state general rule of no fish under 12" still did not do the job and you had the ability to catch a hundred bass a day, all about 10". Yes, a 10" Bass can and will spawn if that is as big as they get in that water.

I know that the above is a tough read, both in content and style, but read it again. There is valuable food for thought.

There will always be conflict between the C&R people and the catch and keep people, so learn to live with it.

If you do not agree with one position or the other, then you had better decide first if you are smarter then the Biologist that set the rules, or if the Biologist is smarter then you. If it is the Biologist that are wrong, then we need to educate them, or petition the politicians to replace them. Note, you will not educate the biologist - this was a red herring suggestion.

Now, I keep very few Bass, but if we can't stop putting down some selective harvest, I am going to go catch and kill some this next week end.

[Trent Hale]

I just found out that a 11+ LMB was caught out in Long Lk in Kitsap and the fish didn't make it . I don't know the guy that caught the close to the state record and I here he eat the fish.

[Mike Carey]

no trolls here. It just seemed the right time to have a healthy discussion. I really appreciate everyone's thoughtful answers. :dj: