Don.. there's a lot of mis-information floating out there about the nuclear option... and you seem to have bitten on some of it..
Not sure what you mean about lies, shoddy construction, and irresponsible management but, excuse me, if you check the records commercial nuclear plants in this nation have the best safety record of any industry.. they are number one.. you are safer in a nuclear power plant than you are riding shotgun in Ted Kennedy's car..... nuclear workers are safer at work than they are at home... if there's an earthquake you are going to be a lot safer in a nuclear plant than you are anywhere else.. if there's a nuclear war..... well you should be getting the idea by now.... the power is produced at competitive prices and the workers are well paid........ how that correlates to "lies" , "shoddy construction" and "irresponsible management" I don't really know.....
nuclear waste is not an unresolved issue... we manage it now without creating any giant insects or contaminated workers...... a two pack a day smoker takes 16 times more radiation dose than maximum allowed for workers in the nuclear waste management industry and the French and the English have been managing it for decades without any problems.. The french recruited the workers for it's nuclear plants from the coal mining industry... the result has been a much healthier, much wealthier blue collar community... china is in the process of doing the same thing (china loses about 5,000 coal miners per year right now and when they ultimately get them all working in nuclear plants that fatality rate will go to zero... I hope you will agree that this is a GOOD thing).....
and there is lots of uranium around.. average crustal abundance is 4ppm and there's enough in seawater that the Japanese built a processing plant that converts seawater into fuel rods.. it worked but the cost is still a bit high..... and besides, one only has to surround a reactor core with U-238 and the "spare" neutrons will convert it into Pu-239 which is also a great fuel for making electricity.........
the facts are out there Don.. just gotta go looking for them...... Wind has had it's chance and failed miserably, Solar has had it's chance and failed miserably, Hydro is totally tapped out, and everything else is stretched to the limit...... it's time to start building them nuclear plants again......
4 dollars a gallon...
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littleriver
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RE:4 dollars a gallon...
Last edited by Anonymous on Fri May 04, 2007 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
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Don Wittenberger
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RE:4 dollars a gallon...
littleriver, I stand by what I said about the big U.S. nuclear contractors. There have been problems with records falsification, inspectors finding faulty construction, unsafe reactor operation, and so on. We've had accidents in this country, albeit nothing on the scale of Chernobyl. Nuclear waste is being managed, but the problem is that it'll be around for 25,000 years and future generations will have to continue to manage it, and pay the costs of managing it, long after the plants have ceased to have any economic function. I do agree with you on the point I think you're trying to make that these problems have been sensationalized by the popular media, and I also agree that nuclear deserves a second look and a fair chance. But the people running the industry need to understand they won't get there by repeating the industry's past mistakes. The industry not only needs to clean up its act, but to convince the American public their attitude has changed and they're doing business in a more responsible way now.
You comment that wind has "failed miserably" is simply wrong. Wind farms are being built in Europe and the U.S. They are not a big part of the energy mix, and it's not likely they ever will be, but they contribute enough to vitiate the need for constructing a number of fossil fuel power plants, and every little bit helps on that score. It's also wrong to say solar "has had its chance and failed miserably," because that technology is still in its infancy, and is getting better and more economically feasible all the time. Ultimately, most terrestrial energy comes from the sun; fossil fuels are actually solar energy stored in highly concentrated form. Increasing the amount of solar in the total energy mix both stretches out the longevity of fossil supplies and reduces harmful emissions from energy production and consumption. Most experts working on energy issues say there is no single long-term solution, and the key to reducing our reliance on fossil fuels is a mix of strategies that includes nuclear, wind, and solar, among others.
You comment that wind has "failed miserably" is simply wrong. Wind farms are being built in Europe and the U.S. They are not a big part of the energy mix, and it's not likely they ever will be, but they contribute enough to vitiate the need for constructing a number of fossil fuel power plants, and every little bit helps on that score. It's also wrong to say solar "has had its chance and failed miserably," because that technology is still in its infancy, and is getting better and more economically feasible all the time. Ultimately, most terrestrial energy comes from the sun; fossil fuels are actually solar energy stored in highly concentrated form. Increasing the amount of solar in the total energy mix both stretches out the longevity of fossil supplies and reduces harmful emissions from energy production and consumption. Most experts working on energy issues say there is no single long-term solution, and the key to reducing our reliance on fossil fuels is a mix of strategies that includes nuclear, wind, and solar, among others.
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cole steffens
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RE:4 dollars a gallon...
i know im glad i have 7 lakes at 7 miles at the most from my home anyone wanna fish the 7 lakes area (snohomish county) hit me up
if we are good to are lakes and streams they will be good to us
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raffensg64
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RE:4 dollars a gallon...
I agree with little river.....it's a simple problem of global-level supply and demand. This is the biggest reason (and realistic) for the prices we're seeing. As China, India, and other countries continue to develop, their need for crude skyrockets and hence, so does the price.
And here at home, we have too many people who drive huge SUVs and trucks just because they can. Many folks I know don't even have a purpose for a large truck, ie pulling a boat or farm work. They are hurting the rest of us by driving up the overall demand. Fortunately, they are beginning to feel the pain. And once the pain goes nationwide, and I suspect it's going to, we'll change our driving habits and choice of vehicle accordingly.
One more thing....these oil/gas prices are a blessing in disguise. It's time to move on to alternative energy sources that are more environmentally friendly. Even we blissfully ignorant Americans will see the need to move and move quickly.
And here at home, we have too many people who drive huge SUVs and trucks just because they can. Many folks I know don't even have a purpose for a large truck, ie pulling a boat or farm work. They are hurting the rest of us by driving up the overall demand. Fortunately, they are beginning to feel the pain. And once the pain goes nationwide, and I suspect it's going to, we'll change our driving habits and choice of vehicle accordingly.
One more thing....these oil/gas prices are a blessing in disguise. It's time to move on to alternative energy sources that are more environmentally friendly. Even we blissfully ignorant Americans will see the need to move and move quickly.
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littleriver
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RE:4 dollars a gallon...
you make a good point with the "high prices forcing us to move to alternatives" raffen...
I used to follow this stuff really closely in the 70s (it was part of my job back then) when Shiek Yamani was Saudi Arabia's oil minister... smart man.... he used to be able quote very accurately how many barrels of oil were being supplanted by nuclear power every year... the oil industry saw nuclear as direct competition and even pitched in with big donations to environmental groups to help them shut the industry down...
Don makes some good points also.... technically he is accurate about many of the "inspector findings" and "records falsification"... I used to be one of the guys who helped respond to the "inquisitors".... one of the reasons this kept happening was that Jimmy Carter appointed a bunch of Natural Resources Defense Council activists to the nuclear regulatory commission right after he was elected president.... when these guys got in they went beserk............ some in the industry tried to fight back by hiding stuff... not a good idea...... after 1976 the nuclear industry in this country simply had to meet much higher safefy and environmental standards than any other industry in the world,, than anything they had ever had to meet and many of the standards were established not to make the world safer but to be impossible goals to achieve.. safety and environmental objectives that would force the industry to shut down.......
but then there is wind... oh my gosh... what a story... they gotta make a movie out of what's going on because the media (even Fox News) refuses to cover it.....
I'll be brief..... In europe everyone supports wind power except the people who have to live near the wind farms.... Wind farms are unsightly, noisy, and the spinning blades kill so many birds that they can be honestly referred to as avian food processors (audubon society position on wind power is mildly negative... which means that they know it kills birds but they also know that most of the big rich contributors and foundations from which they receive funding grants are totally pro-wind)
But there are so many wind farms around in europe now that the number living near them is becoming a viable political force and they are angry... lots and lots of them have organized into political action groups and they all seem to have web pages... couple of years back I spent almost a week of evenings just perusing all the web pages put up by "anti-wind" action groups........ very intense words and arguements...... I can recall one group from Germany noting that they have vigils every week where all the neighbors get together and light candles and stand outside and pray as a group for no wind because when the wind blows at the correct speed to get the turbines cranking out power the noise is mind numbing......
Denmark is the leader in wind generation.. they have so many wind farms up now that the windmills have replaced their once lush forest areas and the noise and the dead birds and the screaming from the neighbors has reached fever pitch... two years ago there was strong pressure in their parliament to end the "tax credits" for building windmills and the pundits were predicting that this would go through, but I haven't followed up to verify..... but even with this many windmills (enough rated capacity to supply 3 times their electrical needs) the total contribution of the spinning turbines to their electric power needs is less than 10%.. the precise number when I was researching this example was under 3%............ they still buy most of their power from France and Germany where nuclear power is what gets the electrons moving in the transmission lines....
similar experiences are being recorded as we write in UK, Germany, Holland, etc., etc.......... Even the very famous and much covered "Altamont" project in California has a bunch of neighbors who have formed a group to try and get it shut down... About 15 years ago the turbines at Altamont were forced to shut down for a month or so in the spring and a month or so in the fall because that is when the raptors migrate through and the windmills were killing so many of them during this migration that it just didn't seem environmentally responsible continue with the carnage...... I can go on and on and on and on about this subject but I think you're getting the idea....
the bottom line is that it's still not politically correct to say it but wind has been a total and unmitigated disaster and we don't know about it yet because the media won't give us the facts......
I used to follow this stuff really closely in the 70s (it was part of my job back then) when Shiek Yamani was Saudi Arabia's oil minister... smart man.... he used to be able quote very accurately how many barrels of oil were being supplanted by nuclear power every year... the oil industry saw nuclear as direct competition and even pitched in with big donations to environmental groups to help them shut the industry down...
Don makes some good points also.... technically he is accurate about many of the "inspector findings" and "records falsification"... I used to be one of the guys who helped respond to the "inquisitors".... one of the reasons this kept happening was that Jimmy Carter appointed a bunch of Natural Resources Defense Council activists to the nuclear regulatory commission right after he was elected president.... when these guys got in they went beserk............ some in the industry tried to fight back by hiding stuff... not a good idea...... after 1976 the nuclear industry in this country simply had to meet much higher safefy and environmental standards than any other industry in the world,, than anything they had ever had to meet and many of the standards were established not to make the world safer but to be impossible goals to achieve.. safety and environmental objectives that would force the industry to shut down.......
but then there is wind... oh my gosh... what a story... they gotta make a movie out of what's going on because the media (even Fox News) refuses to cover it.....
I'll be brief..... In europe everyone supports wind power except the people who have to live near the wind farms.... Wind farms are unsightly, noisy, and the spinning blades kill so many birds that they can be honestly referred to as avian food processors (audubon society position on wind power is mildly negative... which means that they know it kills birds but they also know that most of the big rich contributors and foundations from which they receive funding grants are totally pro-wind)
But there are so many wind farms around in europe now that the number living near them is becoming a viable political force and they are angry... lots and lots of them have organized into political action groups and they all seem to have web pages... couple of years back I spent almost a week of evenings just perusing all the web pages put up by "anti-wind" action groups........ very intense words and arguements...... I can recall one group from Germany noting that they have vigils every week where all the neighbors get together and light candles and stand outside and pray as a group for no wind because when the wind blows at the correct speed to get the turbines cranking out power the noise is mind numbing......
Denmark is the leader in wind generation.. they have so many wind farms up now that the windmills have replaced their once lush forest areas and the noise and the dead birds and the screaming from the neighbors has reached fever pitch... two years ago there was strong pressure in their parliament to end the "tax credits" for building windmills and the pundits were predicting that this would go through, but I haven't followed up to verify..... but even with this many windmills (enough rated capacity to supply 3 times their electrical needs) the total contribution of the spinning turbines to their electric power needs is less than 10%.. the precise number when I was researching this example was under 3%............ they still buy most of their power from France and Germany where nuclear power is what gets the electrons moving in the transmission lines....
similar experiences are being recorded as we write in UK, Germany, Holland, etc., etc.......... Even the very famous and much covered "Altamont" project in California has a bunch of neighbors who have formed a group to try and get it shut down... About 15 years ago the turbines at Altamont were forced to shut down for a month or so in the spring and a month or so in the fall because that is when the raptors migrate through and the windmills were killing so many of them during this migration that it just didn't seem environmentally responsible continue with the carnage...... I can go on and on and on and on about this subject but I think you're getting the idea....
the bottom line is that it's still not politically correct to say it but wind has been a total and unmitigated disaster and we don't know about it yet because the media won't give us the facts......
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
RE:4 dollars a gallon...
If they haven't told you any FACTS then why do you seem to have these 3% numbers and all this other stuff you've so called "researched..."littleriver wrote:
the bottom line is that it's still not politically correct to say it but wind has been a total and unmitigated disaster and we don't know about it yet because the media won't give us the facts......
As far as I'm concerned, 3% is better then nothing. Your kinda saying "give it up" and lets just go build nuclear powerplants.. What a horrible idea. Then terrorists have nuclear powerplants to aim for all over our homeland soil...
Don't chase reports...Be the report others chase....
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littleriver
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RE:4 dollars a gallon...
Sam... you need to do more research on nuclear power, the technology and the safety issues...
We should hope that terrorists would target our nuclear facilities.... these things are so solid that detonating c4 explosives there would cause much less damage than if they were detonated at an oil refinery or a chemical plant or an office building (eg 9/11)....
the notion that "getting close and blowing yourself up might result in a nuclear bomb is absolute and total nonsense"
and the 3% and the 10% numbers are gained by digging into places our lazy, opinionated journalists never seem to want to go.. they are not public knowledge.... my point was not that they couldn't be dug up just that the media ignores them so the general public doesn't know what they are....
If you think 3% is better than nothing than what I would suggest is that you do what I have never, ever been able to convince any proponent of wind power and solar power to do and that is to install windmills and solar panels in your yard and on your home and then cut yourself off from the grid.... once you do that then you will get the "real feel" for what 3% and what 10% is... you'll save a lot on your power bill also....
in fact, when it comes to wind/solar proponents actually walking the walk as they talk the talk, I am a huge supporter of these technologies..... just do it in your backyard, not mine...... and don't send the wind farms off to remote places like Walla Walla where there aren't very many voters and hence no political power to stop the projects.. if you believe in wind and you believe in solar then install the technologies at your home and use them... the technologies are viable right now.. it's possible to call a contractor and have them installed.. no excuses now Sam.... it's totally legal and you will have my blessings...
We should hope that terrorists would target our nuclear facilities.... these things are so solid that detonating c4 explosives there would cause much less damage than if they were detonated at an oil refinery or a chemical plant or an office building (eg 9/11)....
the notion that "getting close and blowing yourself up might result in a nuclear bomb is absolute and total nonsense"
and the 3% and the 10% numbers are gained by digging into places our lazy, opinionated journalists never seem to want to go.. they are not public knowledge.... my point was not that they couldn't be dug up just that the media ignores them so the general public doesn't know what they are....
If you think 3% is better than nothing than what I would suggest is that you do what I have never, ever been able to convince any proponent of wind power and solar power to do and that is to install windmills and solar panels in your yard and on your home and then cut yourself off from the grid.... once you do that then you will get the "real feel" for what 3% and what 10% is... you'll save a lot on your power bill also....
in fact, when it comes to wind/solar proponents actually walking the walk as they talk the talk, I am a huge supporter of these technologies..... just do it in your backyard, not mine...... and don't send the wind farms off to remote places like Walla Walla where there aren't very many voters and hence no political power to stop the projects.. if you believe in wind and you believe in solar then install the technologies at your home and use them... the technologies are viable right now.. it's possible to call a contractor and have them installed.. no excuses now Sam.... it's totally legal and you will have my blessings...
Last edited by Anonymous on Sun May 06, 2007 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
RE:4 dollars a gallon...
I could care less about nuclear power or anything about it. I haven't done any research on my own. I take college level Environmental Science classes and I'm in high school. And No I don't think that building nuclear powerplants are going to result in a nuclear bomb.
Your such a hypocrite on so much stuff too its ridiculous.
You talk about being such a huge supporter and what not, yet you aren't willing to make a sacrifice...Wow huge supporter. You just want to back out to the easiest possible solution without taking any consideration of any other options.
Your such a hypocrite on so much stuff too its ridiculous.
You talk about being such a huge supporter and what not, yet you aren't willing to make a sacrifice...Wow huge supporter. You just want to back out to the easiest possible solution without taking any consideration of any other options.
Don't chase reports...Be the report others chase....
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littleriver
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RE:4 dollars a gallon...
Give me an argument Sam....
if you don't think buidling nuclear power plants are going to result in a nuclear bomb why would you be worried about terrorists targeting one......
the arguement is not about "sacrifice" it's about getting the electrons moving in the transmission lines and the cars moving on the roads.. current policy makes this difficult and expensive.......
If you are taking college level environmental science please cut and paste this debate into a word processing document and print out a copy for your instructor...
would be extremely interested in his/her response...
if you don't think buidling nuclear power plants are going to result in a nuclear bomb why would you be worried about terrorists targeting one......
the arguement is not about "sacrifice" it's about getting the electrons moving in the transmission lines and the cars moving on the roads.. current policy makes this difficult and expensive.......
If you are taking college level environmental science please cut and paste this debate into a word processing document and print out a copy for your instructor...
would be extremely interested in his/her response...
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
RE:4 dollars a gallon...
How's sound Mr. Littleriver?Don Wittenberger wrote:Nuclear reactors are safer and more efficient than they were 30 years ago. However, the U.S. nuclear industry has repeatedly proved to the American public they can't be trusted. Their track record is one of lies, shoddy construction, and irresponsible management. In addition, the Price-Anderson Act makes surrounding communities suffer the loss if there's an accident. That law should be repealed, and nuclear plants should be required to carry enough insurance to compensate the people who would lose their homes and businesses from a nuclear accident.
Disposal of nuclear wastes is an unresolved issue.
But the biggest problem of all is the world supply of uranium is even more limited than the oil supply. There's only about a 50-year supply of uranium, and if we start building a lot of power generation reactors, the uranium will be used up as fast as the oil is being used up.
Yes, perhaps nuclear should be a greater part of the mix -- if we can fix the things that are wrong with it -- but it's not a panacea.
I don't feel like giving you an argument, your writing couldn't be any more confusing not to mention hypocritical, nor do I think you are worth any of my time to argue with. I don't think that powerplants are going to be a giant nuclear bomb for the second time. Read my last post.
You should research the power of what a little glob of plutonium can do. Put it in the water supply of a few hundred thousand people, and a little glob the size of a baseball kills a few hundred thousand people.
Give it 30 years and then we'll be paying so much money for uranium it'll make $3.49 for a gallon of gas look like pocket change. Then, we'll have people in Africa and other uranium exploiting countries getting richer and richer and like in the middle east, some of that money inevitably ends up in the hands of terrorists. Then people will be able to stereotype another culture as a bomb strapping AK-47 wielding just like many Americans view Arab or Middle Eastern people.
Don't chase reports...Be the report others chase....
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littleriver
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RE:4 dollars a gallon...
I've already responded to Don's comments...
Also, there is lots of Uranium.. average crustal abundance is 4ppm and if your parents live in a home on 1/4 acre of land the total Uranium-235 contained within the definition of the real estate deed is enough to build about 2 dozen nuclear bombs... Japanese have even been able to refine nuclear fuel rods from sea water.. (Lots of folks don't know that seawater is radioactive)....
The case you made wasn't too bad for your age... just need to keep studying and keep an open mind.........
also need to grow a thick skin.... that comes with practice.... just never give up
and I would greatly appreciate you printing out this thread and giving to your environmental science instructor for comment...
have the instructor post a response and or "general statement of view on the subjects covered so far" and we'll take it from there...
Also, there is lots of Uranium.. average crustal abundance is 4ppm and if your parents live in a home on 1/4 acre of land the total Uranium-235 contained within the definition of the real estate deed is enough to build about 2 dozen nuclear bombs... Japanese have even been able to refine nuclear fuel rods from sea water.. (Lots of folks don't know that seawater is radioactive)....
The case you made wasn't too bad for your age... just need to keep studying and keep an open mind.........
also need to grow a thick skin.... that comes with practice.... just never give up
and I would greatly appreciate you printing out this thread and giving to your environmental science instructor for comment...
have the instructor post a response and or "general statement of view on the subjects covered so far" and we'll take it from there...
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
RE:4 dollars a gallon...
Last edited by Anonymous on Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't chase reports...Be the report others chase....
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littleriver
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RE:4 dollars a gallon...
I have a life sam...
you are the one who is struggling.... you are the one who cannot present arguments in an intelligent and coherent manner...
I'm trying to be generous in my responses...
You say you don't understand what I'm talking about but what I'm talking about is the language and the knowledge of energy policy..
If you don't understand the language then you shouldn't be discussing the topic or influencing the decisions....
my suggestion is to simply try to come up to speed on the subject......
you really don't know what you are talking about but you are young and have time to learn....
let's hit on the high points
you are the one who thinks uranium prices will skyrocket..... not true.. a totally bogus argument
you are the one who thinks if windmills only generate 3% of their rated capacity that it's OK... a totally bogus and culturally dangerous point of view if too many people hold it...
you are the one who thinks we should be concerned about terrorists at nuclear power plants... Sam... the place you need to be concerned about terrorists is on the bus you ride in the morning.. that's where people are dying.. not in nuclear power plants...
blah, blah, blah.... if you want to debate the topic intelligently Sam, then do the research and debate it intelligently... if you want to remain mentally unfulfilled and intellectually lifeless for the rest of your life then that is your choice to make... go find someone who has decided to follow similar path to debate.. you will fare much better....
you are the one who is struggling.... you are the one who cannot present arguments in an intelligent and coherent manner...
I'm trying to be generous in my responses...
You say you don't understand what I'm talking about but what I'm talking about is the language and the knowledge of energy policy..
If you don't understand the language then you shouldn't be discussing the topic or influencing the decisions....
my suggestion is to simply try to come up to speed on the subject......
you really don't know what you are talking about but you are young and have time to learn....
let's hit on the high points
you are the one who thinks uranium prices will skyrocket..... not true.. a totally bogus argument
you are the one who thinks if windmills only generate 3% of their rated capacity that it's OK... a totally bogus and culturally dangerous point of view if too many people hold it...
you are the one who thinks we should be concerned about terrorists at nuclear power plants... Sam... the place you need to be concerned about terrorists is on the bus you ride in the morning.. that's where people are dying.. not in nuclear power plants...
blah, blah, blah.... if you want to debate the topic intelligently Sam, then do the research and debate it intelligently... if you want to remain mentally unfulfilled and intellectually lifeless for the rest of your life then that is your choice to make... go find someone who has decided to follow similar path to debate.. you will fare much better....
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
RE:4 dollars a gallon...
First of all, I'm not the one "struggling." Your getting all uptight and stuff cause people are questioning you and your knowledge. You seem to always HAVE to be the correct one. Will NEVER accept the fact that your not always right. Oh, wait, 17 years of research makes you the god of knowledge in global warming and gasoline alternatives and random stuff like that. So no one should question you right? And you are the most informed person on this issue right?
I don't live my life in fear and worry about getting blown up on buses. And I drive a car so I don't ride the bus. Bus bombs really only happen in Baghdad
I'll leave you to your off topic research garbage while I'm off fishing....
I don't live my life in fear and worry about getting blown up on buses. And I drive a car so I don't ride the bus. Bus bombs really only happen in Baghdad
I'll leave you to your off topic research garbage while I'm off fishing....
Last edited by Anonymous on Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't chase reports...Be the report others chase....
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littleriver
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RE:4 dollars a gallon...
Sam... All I've asked for is an argument.. an intelligent debate....you give me no argument. you give me no debate... you give me no intelligence... just rants... bad, very bad......
Learn the subject so you can debate the subject.. I mean it's that simple.... ( and by the way, bus and train bombs happen in Spain, England, Israel, Indonesion, Baghdad. etc., etc. ... and the more dependent we become on arab oil the greater the probability that they will be coming to this country and our neighborhoods.. oh yeah.. these guys also know how to make car bombs)...
And I do a lot of fishing and have lots of posts in the fishing sections..
I just happen to also be an expert on energy policy and environmentalism and have debated these subjects for many years...
I was once able to crash an eco-party in Seattle about 20 years ago and catch the Greenpeace National Media Advisor off guard.. we went at it for a few minutes on camera and I actually got the better of him and it was shown on the evening news on all the Seattle stations.... this is tough with the "pros".. they never allow themselves to get off message or into an unprotected environment...
but back to the environmentalists..... because we are in the "off topic" section now...
I've always thought that the best hollywood depictions of "environmentalism" were in the movies "Matrix" and "Apocalypto"....
In Matrix it was the scene where Agent Smith was interrogating Morpheus... In this scene Smith referrs to "humans as a virus" and went into a long an artistic rant about how we are like viruses......
In apocalypto it was the "temple scene". the environmentalists were the ones at the top of the temple entertaining the crowd....
and now Drudge pops a couple of releases that sort of confirm my opinions.....
one from the Australian.. and this at a time when demographers are sounding the alarm that the human population on planet earth is starting to decline.....
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Children 'bad for planet'
By Sarah-Kate Templeton in London
May 07, 2007 12:00am
Article from: The Australian
HAVING large families should be frowned upon as an environmental misdemeanour in the same way as frequent long-haul flights, driving a big car and failing to reuse plastic bags, says a report to be published today by a green think tank.
The paper by the Optimum Population Trust will say that if couples had two children instead of three they could cut their family's carbon dioxide output by the equivalent of 620 return flights a year between London and New York.
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the next one is from the business and media institute
this Paul Watson guy sounds just like Agent Smith on the Matrix....
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Eco-Extremist Wants World Population to Drop below 1 Billion
Sea Shepherd founder says mankind is a 'virus' and we need to 're-wild the planet.'
By Dan Gainor
The Boone Pickens Free Market Fellow
Business & Media Institute
5/6/2007 7:41:33 PM
Send this page to a friend! (click here)
Apparently, saving the whales is more important than saving 5.5 billion people. Paul Watson, founder and president of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society and famous for militant intervention to stop whalers, now warns mankind is “acting like a virus” and is harming Mother Earth.
Watson’s May 4 editorial asked the question “The Beginning of the End for Life as We Know it on Planet Earth?” Then he left no doubt about the answer. “We are killing our host the planet Earth,” he claimed and called for a population drop to less than 1 billion.
The commentary reminded readers that Watson had called humans a disease before and he wasn’t sorry. “I was once severely criticized for describing human beings as being the ‘AIDS of the Earth.’ I make no apologies for that statement,” the column continued.
Learn the subject so you can debate the subject.. I mean it's that simple.... ( and by the way, bus and train bombs happen in Spain, England, Israel, Indonesion, Baghdad. etc., etc. ... and the more dependent we become on arab oil the greater the probability that they will be coming to this country and our neighborhoods.. oh yeah.. these guys also know how to make car bombs)...
And I do a lot of fishing and have lots of posts in the fishing sections..
I just happen to also be an expert on energy policy and environmentalism and have debated these subjects for many years...
I was once able to crash an eco-party in Seattle about 20 years ago and catch the Greenpeace National Media Advisor off guard.. we went at it for a few minutes on camera and I actually got the better of him and it was shown on the evening news on all the Seattle stations.... this is tough with the "pros".. they never allow themselves to get off message or into an unprotected environment...
but back to the environmentalists..... because we are in the "off topic" section now...
I've always thought that the best hollywood depictions of "environmentalism" were in the movies "Matrix" and "Apocalypto"....
In Matrix it was the scene where Agent Smith was interrogating Morpheus... In this scene Smith referrs to "humans as a virus" and went into a long an artistic rant about how we are like viruses......
In apocalypto it was the "temple scene". the environmentalists were the ones at the top of the temple entertaining the crowd....
and now Drudge pops a couple of releases that sort of confirm my opinions.....
one from the Australian.. and this at a time when demographers are sounding the alarm that the human population on planet earth is starting to decline.....
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Children 'bad for planet'
By Sarah-Kate Templeton in London
May 07, 2007 12:00am
Article from: The Australian
HAVING large families should be frowned upon as an environmental misdemeanour in the same way as frequent long-haul flights, driving a big car and failing to reuse plastic bags, says a report to be published today by a green think tank.
The paper by the Optimum Population Trust will say that if couples had two children instead of three they could cut their family's carbon dioxide output by the equivalent of 620 return flights a year between London and New York.
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the next one is from the business and media institute
this Paul Watson guy sounds just like Agent Smith on the Matrix....
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Eco-Extremist Wants World Population to Drop below 1 Billion
Sea Shepherd founder says mankind is a 'virus' and we need to 're-wild the planet.'
By Dan Gainor
The Boone Pickens Free Market Fellow
Business & Media Institute
5/6/2007 7:41:33 PM
Send this page to a friend! (click here)
Apparently, saving the whales is more important than saving 5.5 billion people. Paul Watson, founder and president of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society and famous for militant intervention to stop whalers, now warns mankind is “acting like a virus” and is harming Mother Earth.
Watson’s May 4 editorial asked the question “The Beginning of the End for Life as We Know it on Planet Earth?” Then he left no doubt about the answer. “We are killing our host the planet Earth,” he claimed and called for a population drop to less than 1 billion.
The commentary reminded readers that Watson had called humans a disease before and he wasn’t sorry. “I was once severely criticized for describing human beings as being the ‘AIDS of the Earth.’ I make no apologies for that statement,” the column continued.
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue May 08, 2007 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
RE:4 dollars a gallon...
I have giving you a debate and given you an argument...Go read my earlier posts.
Don't chase reports...Be the report others chase....
-
Jimmy Jimsoks
- Petty Officer
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:34 pm
- Location: Sammamish
RE:4 dollars a gallon...
Ive been following this argument for some time now and now im at the point where i can just say: WTF???? Where r u coming from little river?
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue May 08, 2007 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
-Jimmy
-
littleriver
- Commander
- Posts: 317
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:24 pm
- Location: Ethel, WA
- Contact:
RE:4 dollars a gallon...
ok.. just to make sure I haven't missed anything I've copied all your posts...
sam says..
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I've heard that you can make cars more fuel efficient. But the guys said that they could get them to like 100mpg. So I kinda call bs on that. I think someone would have spilt the beans by now if that was true. It's actually kinda amazing that with a gallon of gas you can get a 2 ton truck 13 or 14 miles. That's pretty crazy actually thinking about that...
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littleriver responds...... ok.. you're amazed.. "Where's the argument???"
Sam argues......
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We don't use 70% of gasoline just by going back and forth to work...
You shouldn't listen to every fact people tell you. That's bs. Ever think about how much gasoline is burned by tankers and airplanes and semi's? That fact is wrong.
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littleriver responds.... if you have a reference then give me a reference.... 70% of gasoline produced in this country is used for commuting. This has been reported in many media sources.... but I should note that Tankers and semis use diesel and airplanes use jet fuel which is not "gas".....
Sam argues...
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And we are promoting real alternatives: hybrid cars and biodiesel and mass transportation. Where have you been? Nucluear power: sure lets just pour nuclear stuff in our gas tanks. Good idea. Not.
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littleriver responds.... where the heck do you get this "pour nuclear stuff in our gas tanks" nonsense???? make it real sam.. make it real..... this is delusional pyschotherapy stuff.. not a real argument...
sam argues...
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And yea, no kidding WIND SUN and ALCOHOL don't help out with the gas situation. Gas doesn't come from sun or a turning windmill. It helps out with our energy so we wont have to rely on coal and have to burn as much coal to choke up out atmosphere with greenhouse gases.
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littleriver responds...... SAm, Sam, Sam.... Gas does come from the Sun... didn't you take biology????.... OK.. let's start from the beginning..... plants grow on planet earth long before humans come to enjoy the space.... plants grow because the sun (a great big nuclear fusion reactor in the sky) provides the radiation necessary for photosynthesis to occur... plants die and are fossilized... some of the fossilized plants get real oily and ooky and start to look like crude oil... in 19th century man discovers this crude oil and learns how to refine it to serve his/her energy needs......
Man... Now I'm starting to understand why you think I'm arrogant Sam... I'm not arrogant I'm just talking about what everyone is supposed to learn in grade school and high school but you obviously haven't learned it yet..........
and sam.... they have thousands upon thousands of operating windmill in europe but they still haven't shut down any of their nuclear plants (europeans shut down most of their coal plants when they converted to nuclear) why???? because if they did it would cause all the cities to go dark....... we have thousands upon thousand of windmill operating in this country but we can't shut down any of our coal plants for the same reason... we still produce over 50% of our electric power by burning coal.. if we built a million more windmills we would still be burning just as much coal and it would add up to more than 50% of production...
this isn't an argument Sam.. it contains no facts.. it is simply wispy eco-dreaming..... sort of like what you will find in Cullenbach's "Ecotopia"....
sam argues.....
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But we use a ton more oil then just with the gasoline in our automobiles. It doesn't matter how much gas we use with our cars, becuase we still guzzle gas with all the other things that we have to put oil byproducts in.
And wind or solar power still doesn't help out with the gas line. maybe take that thought into the Global warming topic. I don't think wind can be turned into gas, unless mr. I've researched everything for 2 decades
has an ingredient that turns a breeze of wind into gasoline for my car. It DOES help though for renewable energy, maybe not as much as we would like it to be, but I'd
rather have better alternatives the burning coal. You do realize that if we tap that Alaskan national Wildlife that oil supply will only last America for 4 days with their current usage?
That's a big thing people need to know. It's not going to carry oil prices down or solve any oil crisis. It'll just reduce our dependency on middle east oil for 4 days. I do think we could put more platforms out there though,
but there is only so much.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
littleriver responds...
not sure what to do with this verbage, but the United states uses about 20 million barrels of crude oil (crude is a 55 gallon barrel) and about 9 miilion barrels of gasoline (gasoline is measured in a 40 gallon barrel) a day and the ANWAR reserves are in the billions.. not sure how you get 4 days out of that but the rest of the post is pretty much unintelligible anyways so I'll just let you rework it and try to explain what you were getting at in another post....
sam argues..
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And yes I agree, our current state government is also horrible when it comes to solving out issues like this. Look at the transportation system we have hear. Go to the east coast and look at how popular mass public transit
is over there. Why can't we figure out a subway or a light rail or a bus system that people actually use? Why don't more people carpool over here? Washington can't figure out a mass public transit system
if the politicians lives depended on it.
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littleriver responds...
"Why don't more people carpool???" Hey, social planners have been working on that one for decades..... good question but not an argument....
sam argues...
______________________________________________________________________________
I also think that nuclear energy isn't the best alternative. I don't know what you plan to do with all the radioactive material that comes from it. Like those new holes we are burying to put all out nuclear waste
in those mountains in the middle of Nevada? Great, but how are we going to get thousands of truckloads and trainloads to those mountains without any spills or accidents? All it takes is for a terrorist to
get a softball sized glob of that plutonium and stick it in the water supply and they could wipe out all of Bellevue.
Back to top
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littleriver responds....
first of all a golf ball sized glob of plutonium in the bellevue water supply wouldn't wipe out all of bellevue.. in fact, if there were no radiatioin detectors it would probably just sit there for a few decades and nobody would be any the wiser..... you obviously don't know that Plutonium-238 is used to power the 10plus year battery in heart pacemakers...... not only is this stuff much less toxic than scientists originally thought but some of it's isotopes have medicinal applicati
sam says..
–-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've heard that you can make cars more fuel efficient. But the guys said that they could get them to like 100mpg. So I kinda call bs on that. I think someone would have spilt the beans by now if that was true. It's actually kinda amazing that with a gallon of gas you can get a 2 ton truck 13 or 14 miles. That's pretty crazy actually thinking about that...
--------------------------------------------------------------
littleriver responds...... ok.. you're amazed.. "Where's the argument???"
Sam argues......
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We don't use 70% of gasoline just by going back and forth to work...
You shouldn't listen to every fact people tell you. That's bs. Ever think about how much gasoline is burned by tankers and airplanes and semi's? That fact is wrong.
------------------------------------------------------
littleriver responds.... if you have a reference then give me a reference.... 70% of gasoline produced in this country is used for commuting. This has been reported in many media sources.... but I should note that Tankers and semis use diesel and airplanes use jet fuel which is not "gas".....
Sam argues...
-----------------------------------------------------------
And we are promoting real alternatives: hybrid cars and biodiesel and mass transportation. Where have you been? Nucluear power: sure lets just pour nuclear stuff in our gas tanks. Good idea. Not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
littleriver responds.... where the heck do you get this "pour nuclear stuff in our gas tanks" nonsense???? make it real sam.. make it real..... this is delusional pyschotherapy stuff.. not a real argument...
sam argues...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And yea, no kidding WIND SUN and ALCOHOL don't help out with the gas situation. Gas doesn't come from sun or a turning windmill. It helps out with our energy so we wont have to rely on coal and have to burn as much coal to choke up out atmosphere with greenhouse gases.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
littleriver responds...... SAm, Sam, Sam.... Gas does come from the Sun... didn't you take biology????.... OK.. let's start from the beginning..... plants grow on planet earth long before humans come to enjoy the space.... plants grow because the sun (a great big nuclear fusion reactor in the sky) provides the radiation necessary for photosynthesis to occur... plants die and are fossilized... some of the fossilized plants get real oily and ooky and start to look like crude oil... in 19th century man discovers this crude oil and learns how to refine it to serve his/her energy needs......
Man... Now I'm starting to understand why you think I'm arrogant Sam... I'm not arrogant I'm just talking about what everyone is supposed to learn in grade school and high school but you obviously haven't learned it yet..........
and sam.... they have thousands upon thousands of operating windmill in europe but they still haven't shut down any of their nuclear plants (europeans shut down most of their coal plants when they converted to nuclear) why???? because if they did it would cause all the cities to go dark....... we have thousands upon thousand of windmill operating in this country but we can't shut down any of our coal plants for the same reason... we still produce over 50% of our electric power by burning coal.. if we built a million more windmills we would still be burning just as much coal and it would add up to more than 50% of production...
this isn't an argument Sam.. it contains no facts.. it is simply wispy eco-dreaming..... sort of like what you will find in Cullenbach's "Ecotopia"....
sam argues.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But we use a ton more oil then just with the gasoline in our automobiles. It doesn't matter how much gas we use with our cars, becuase we still guzzle gas with all the other things that we have to put oil byproducts in.
And wind or solar power still doesn't help out with the gas line. maybe take that thought into the Global warming topic. I don't think wind can be turned into gas, unless mr. I've researched everything for 2 decades
has an ingredient that turns a breeze of wind into gasoline for my car. It DOES help though for renewable energy, maybe not as much as we would like it to be, but I'd
rather have better alternatives the burning coal. You do realize that if we tap that Alaskan national Wildlife that oil supply will only last America for 4 days with their current usage?
That's a big thing people need to know. It's not going to carry oil prices down or solve any oil crisis. It'll just reduce our dependency on middle east oil for 4 days. I do think we could put more platforms out there though,
but there is only so much.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
littleriver responds...
not sure what to do with this verbage, but the United states uses about 20 million barrels of crude oil (crude is a 55 gallon barrel) and about 9 miilion barrels of gasoline (gasoline is measured in a 40 gallon barrel) a day and the ANWAR reserves are in the billions.. not sure how you get 4 days out of that but the rest of the post is pretty much unintelligible anyways so I'll just let you rework it and try to explain what you were getting at in another post....
sam argues..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And yes I agree, our current state government is also horrible when it comes to solving out issues like this. Look at the transportation system we have hear. Go to the east coast and look at how popular mass public transit
is over there. Why can't we figure out a subway or a light rail or a bus system that people actually use? Why don't more people carpool over here? Washington can't figure out a mass public transit system
if the politicians lives depended on it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
littleriver responds...
"Why don't more people carpool???" Hey, social planners have been working on that one for decades..... good question but not an argument....
sam argues...
______________________________________________________________________________
I also think that nuclear energy isn't the best alternative. I don't know what you plan to do with all the radioactive material that comes from it. Like those new holes we are burying to put all out nuclear waste
in those mountains in the middle of Nevada? Great, but how are we going to get thousands of truckloads and trainloads to those mountains without any spills or accidents? All it takes is for a terrorist to
get a softball sized glob of that plutonium and stick it in the water supply and they could wipe out all of Bellevue.
Back to top
---------------------------------------------------------------------
littleriver responds....
first of all a golf ball sized glob of plutonium in the bellevue water supply wouldn't wipe out all of bellevue.. in fact, if there were no radiatioin detectors it would probably just sit there for a few decades and nobody would be any the wiser..... you obviously don't know that Plutonium-238 is used to power the 10plus year battery in heart pacemakers...... not only is this stuff much less toxic than scientists originally thought but some of it's isotopes have medicinal applicati
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue May 08, 2007 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
-
littleriver
- Commander
- Posts: 317
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:24 pm
- Location: Ethel, WA
- Contact:
RE:4 dollars a gallon...
and jimmy.. I'm simply making the case I started out with in the first post...
the case that the environmental movement has been responsible for our rapidly increasing energy prices over the last several decades... it's news now because of the big recent jump in gas prices but all our energy prices have been edging up for a long, long time and they are going to keep going up at a rate greater than inflation until there are some political changes.........
forcing up energy prices has been part of the environmental agenda for decades... Amory Lovins (a highly revered high priest of eco-ideology) noted back in the 80s that giving humans an endless and inexpensive supply of energy would be like giving an idiot child a machine gun... Amory was a raving lunatic but the granolas still adore him......If you go through all the meeting minutes and newsletters issued by the Northwest Power Planning Council over the last 25 years or so you will find Amory mentioned in a positive light on numerous occasions... and, in case you haven't been following the subject locally, the Northwest Power Planning Council was formed in about 1980 and has enormous influence on electric power planning, generation, and distribution decisions in Washington, Oregon, and Idaho....
my case is fairly simple to make but there is a lot of muddled thinking on this subject as the posts by Sam and Don clearly show...
the case that the environmental movement has been responsible for our rapidly increasing energy prices over the last several decades... it's news now because of the big recent jump in gas prices but all our energy prices have been edging up for a long, long time and they are going to keep going up at a rate greater than inflation until there are some political changes.........
forcing up energy prices has been part of the environmental agenda for decades... Amory Lovins (a highly revered high priest of eco-ideology) noted back in the 80s that giving humans an endless and inexpensive supply of energy would be like giving an idiot child a machine gun... Amory was a raving lunatic but the granolas still adore him......If you go through all the meeting minutes and newsletters issued by the Northwest Power Planning Council over the last 25 years or so you will find Amory mentioned in a positive light on numerous occasions... and, in case you haven't been following the subject locally, the Northwest Power Planning Council was formed in about 1980 and has enormous influence on electric power planning, generation, and distribution decisions in Washington, Oregon, and Idaho....
my case is fairly simple to make but there is a lot of muddled thinking on this subject as the posts by Sam and Don clearly show...
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue May 08, 2007 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
RE:4 dollars a gallon...
First of all, I know that sun and the energy coming from it produces the fossil fuels we are depleting today. BUT I said they didn't produce oil because the fossil fuels have been gathering for millions of years now, and thats a pretty slow rate...So unless you can speed the regeneration of fossil fuels, I'll consider sun to not be any help.
Second of all, you talked about the 3% stuff. Not me.
3rd of all: My teacher said you are horribly uninformed about nuclear power...
Second of all, you talked about the 3% stuff. Not me.
3rd of all: My teacher said you are horribly uninformed about nuclear power...
Don't chase reports...Be the report others chase....