Catch and Release when fishing with bait....

[littleriver]

I've read two fishing reports already since Sunday where the person's reporting stated that they were
using worms or powerbait and that they released some of the fish they caught...

I realize that our fishing regs are way too complicated and I will confess to having done things that weren't legal because I hadn't read the regs properly or misunderstood what was written.........


I even fished a lake illegally a few years back after asking a game warden if what I was going to be doing was OK... Game Warden said OK.... some other fishermen who came by later called me on it and I stopped (in this case it was illegal to fish from a floating device in this particular water) so even enforcement officers can make mistakes.......

but this releasing fish that have been caught on worms or powerbait thing just keeps coming up over and over and over again..

driving me nuts....

[raffensg64]

I don't think the regs are too difficult to understand. Here's my interpretation: You can release fish caught with bait, however, that fish counts against your daily limit for that particular species. For example, if you are fishing for trout in a lake, using power bait, and catch and release your first two fish, you are now in a situation where, legally, you can only retain three. If you elect not to retain any trout and you release five, you are done for the day because those five were caught with bait. When fishing with bait, all fish count against your daily limit whether kept or not. Retain 1, release 4 - good to go. Retain 4, release 1 - good to go. But in either case, your done for the day when the fifth fish is caught.

[iPodrodder]

I don't think the regs are too difficult to understand. Here's my interpretation: You can release fish caught with bait, however, that fish counts against your daily limit for that particular species. For example, if you are fishing for trout in a lake, using power bait, and catch and release your first two fish, you are now in a situation where, legally, you can only retain three. If you elect not to retain any trout and you release five, you are done for the day because those five were caught with bait. When fishing with bait, all fish count against your daily limit whether kept or not. Retain 1, release 4 - good to go. Retain 4, release 1 - good to go. But in either case, your done for the day when the fifth fish is caught.

I agree with this.

[A9]

Yep raffensg64 is on the money...

[littleriver]

very well stated raffen.... and that is exactly how the rule reads... the problem is that once you release a fish how does anyone then know that you caught and released it when you show up at the check station with 5 others?????? and I should have noted in the first post that the referenced reports posted mentioned that total fish caught and released was greater than 5.....

that rule is a bit crazy and if I were a regular bait fisherman I would start going to those "rules review" meetings they have every other year and start getting in my 2 cents worth....

sport fishing is an extremely "diverse" sport... lots of different folks having fun fishing a lot of different ways... my sympathies are with the guys who have to write the rules that keep everything under control and allow the resource to provide everyone with a maximum level of enjoyment..... in this kind of environment it takes some discipline to say to yourself that you're always going to be legal... even if the things you are doing to stay legal don't make much sense to you at the time.....


back to the original point though.... I've been reading the washingtonlakes.com fishing reports on and off since the first year Mike went hot and every year there are multiple reports from baitfishers who talk about releasing fish they caught using bait and then going home with their limits....... it just keeps coming up over and over and over.... probably need to set up a special education program or something....javascript:insertsmiley('#-o ','/Forum/images/emoticons/eusa_doh.gif')

[trout magnet]

Like many other regs the honor system is all we have.

[raffensg64]

Special education is not necessary, and it wouldn't work anyways. It would be tough to enforce unless a GW was right there or another angler made an on-the-spot-correction. It's in the regs and individual anglers have a very simple choice to make, read the regs and comply accordingly or read the regs and disregard. Personally, I'm very certain that a lot of those folks writing these reports know the rules...they're just not real smart and chose to "show their a**" by submitting it. It reads the same way year after year in the regs. At some point and time and by some means they were informed, but for whatever reason they decided to choose wrong over right. And unfortunately, the rest of us pay the price in some way, shape or form, whether we realize it or not.

[bigastrout]

I know this rule gets broken all the time. Now there are the ones that need a ticket. But I think its done mostly of out of ignorance. The people I generally see doing this are the ones that fish 2 to 3 times a year. Most of the time they are friendly people. When I see this I like to just give them a friendly heads up and let them know what they are doing is wrong. Most of the time they are just a bit imberassed but happy I saved them from a ticket and you can tell they have no intention of breaking the rule again.

There are 2 important parts of this rule that have not been discused yet and might be behind some of these reports.

1. This rule only applies to Trout

2. Any Trout under the minimum size of 8" do not count as part of the 5 trout daily limit when fishing with bait in rivers, streams and beaver ponds.

So it is possible to catch more than 5 fish and still take home a limit.

Maybe a some of the fish were under the 8" min size

Maybe some were a different species, not trout at all.

[Fish On!]

The rules have changed over the past 8-10 years. There was never a restriction to releasing fish while using bait. Then it was changed to the first 5 fish you caught had to be kept regegardless of size. That rule was basicially unenforceable, so it was changed several years ago to say the first 5 fish you caught whether kept or released. Now, that's going backwards again. Unless a WDFW agent is standing there watching a person catch and release fish he'll never be able enforce that law.

So what's your chance of ever getting caught?.......next to zero. Most bait people know that and still cherry pick their fish. I think more emphasis should be spent on education on the proper way to release a fish. Nobody wants to catch 5 little fingerlings, so in the real world bait fishers are going to cherry pick their fish. Make the regulation for barbless hooks and teach people how to release fish. That applys to fly fishemen too!.....I've seen so many fly fishermen grab a fish and not think twice about squeezing the beegeezes out of it trying to get a hook out. I see the regulations went to knotless nets!......That's great, but you don't need a net 99% of the time unless you catch a whopper you plan on keeping.

If you have to grab a fish and pull it from the water then you are causing it harm. Barbless hook and shake it off or pop the hook out. You should never even touch the fish. If you pull a fish out of the water and boat it then you should be required to keep it. I'm speaking of trout as they are the most vulnerable to mistreatment. If you hook a fish deep and it's not bleeding then take a knife and cut the line at the mouth without pulling it from the water. I've caught many fish with hooks partially or almost fully dissolved after 2-4 weeks of the opener.

I wish the WDFW could enforce this rule, but it's not going to happen if they continue to stock fingerlings in the lakes of E.WA. They ignore the rule at many of the lakes. If you go to Jameson Lk on the Oct opener you could issue 500 tickets to the ones that violate this rule and nobody gets ticketed. The minimum size went away years ago, so unless they stock decent size fish it's going to continue.

[julbright]

I agree with Fish On!, the rule is uninforcable. I use bait frequently with barbless hooks with the intention of landing the large fish and letting the smalller ones shake it free, we all know that slack lines let the fish off. However, in the event that a fish is harmed and is going to kick the bucket, I keep it (if it is legal to do so). Bait fishermen get a bad rep. in that everyone thinks they are breaking the rules, but if the fish is released unharmed, is it really that bad? I encourage more folks to fish with barbless hooks, it minimizes the damage and if you know what your doing, you will land the bigger ones.

[raffensg64]

Bigastrout, please enlighten me! Where are you seeing that at? I'm looking at page 33 of the 2007-2008 regs and am reading (I think....I'm getting old and tired) that in streams, rivers, beaver ponds AND lakes all TROUT caught with bait are counted as part of the daily limit, whether kept or released. There is an 8" minimum on rivers with no minimum size on lakes. Am I missing something....is there another page that overrides or contradicts this? Thanks!

OK, got it now, still page 33.....what you mentioned applies to to rivers, streams or beaver ponds only. Min size 8", daily limit 2. With bait, trout EQUAL to or GREATER than minimum size are counted as part of the daily limit whether kept or released.

Does not apply to lakes, though, as far as I can tell.

[Smalma]

The issue of course with releasing bait caught fish is that there is a very high hooking mortality. Study after study has found that the mortality of fish caught and released on bait is consistently in that 30 to 50% range.

There is nothing wrong with using bait as long as it is legal to do so on the water that one is fishing but the angler needs to be aware that there is a potential for an increased impact on released bait caught trout as compared to other methods. Is the goal of releasing a fish to avoid having to keep a small fish? or is it to have the fish survival for another day?

Yes the regulation is largely unenforceable (though a game warden could and on occasssion have water anglers release more than the legal limit) however what are the options? Allow uncaring anglers to continue to waste fish? Require anglers to keep the first 5 trout caught with bait (talking lakes here)? Banning all use of bait? Clearly there is a wide range of potential options and the current regulation is nothing more than a compromise and as with all compromises it is largely unsatisfactory to most.

Tight lines
Curt

[bigastrout]

raffensg64 your right the 8" min applies to rivers, streams and beaver ponds it is no min on lakes, ponds and reservoirs. I changed my post to reflect that.

[MikeFishes]

The issue of course with releasing bait caught fish is that there is a very high hooking mortality. Study after study has found that the mortality of fish caught and released on bait is consistently in that 30 to 50% range.

There is nothing wrong with using bait as long as it is legal to do so on the water that one is fishing but the angler needs to be aware that there is a potential for an increased impact on released bait caught trout as compared to other methods. Is the goal of releasing a fish to avoid having to keep a small fish? or is it to have the fish survival for another day?

Yes the regulation is largely unenforceable (though a game warden could and on occasssion have water anglers release more than the legal limit) however what are the options? Allow uncaring anglers to continue to waste fish? Require anglers to keep the first 5 trout caught with bait (talking lakes here)? Banning all use of bait? Clearly there is a wide range of potential options and the current regulation is nothing more than a compromise and as with all compromises it is largely unsatisfactory to most.

Tight lines
Curt

Curt, do you have links to these studies? I wasn't aware that the mortality rate of fish caught using bait was so high. What's the mortality of fish caught just on lures? I'm just curious what the delta is betwee the two.

[Smalma]

Mikey -
Don't have a link handy but there have been a ton of studies done on this issue and am sure that a google search will provide you with lots of reading.

In mid-1980s (84?) Paul Monogillo for the Department of Wildlife summarized the studies at the time (dozens of them) as I recall the mortality of released fish with bait was consistently in that 30 to 50% while the mortality with lures and flies was consistently less than 10%. You'll find that summary cited in all kinds of reports.

One thing a close look at those studies and experience has shown that the mortality of released fish is directly related to where the fish are hooked. The especially critical areas include such areas as eyes, base of tongue, gills, gullet. Becasue baited hooks are so often taken deeper such fish are much more frequrently hooked in those critical areas.

Tight lines
Curt

[The Quadfather]

This is an interesting thread which makes me think of the many times I see people fishing in a particular place yet completly disregarding the rules. i.e. Whenever I go to Rattlesnake Lk. (Snoqualmie Pass) I see the fly guys in float tubes who I am pretty sure are doing the right thing and following the Selective Fishery rules. Then there are many of the plunkers (not all of course) who are completly disregarding everything (not to mention throwing their empty bait containers in the lake.)
Point being we all know you honestly have to take the regs. with with you when you go out somewhere or at least read them well for each lake you will hit. and more importanly there is just a group of people out there who just plain don't care about any of that, and/or don't even own a copy of regs. I think that these people are very selfish and just think all these resources will just be there indefinetly without any management.

If you told your peers at the office about all the different types of regs. for different water, they are mostly shocked and can't believe that "So much" goes into it....."Common it's just fishing" I've heard. Nobody likes confrontation, but it's in the rest of our best interest to maybe gently point out to people what's up with the rules.

[gpc]

[quote="quadradomus"]This is an interesting thread which makes me think of the many times I see people fishing in a particular place yet completly disregarding the rules. i.e. Whenever I go to Rattlesnake Lk. (Snoqualmie Pass) I see the fly guys in float tubes who I am pretty sure are doing the right thing and following the Selective Fishery rules. Then there are many of the plunkers (not all of course) who are completly disregarding everything (not to mention throwing their empty bait containers in the lake.)
Point being we all know you honestly have to take the regs. with with you when you go out somewhere or at least read them well for each lake you will hit. and more importanly there is just a group of people out there who just plain don't care about any of that, and/or don't even own a copy of regs. I think that these people are very selfish and just think all these resources will just be there indefinetly without any management.

If you told your peers at the office about all the different types of regs. for different water, they are mostly shocked and can't believe that "So much" goes into it....."Common it's just fishing" I've heard. Nobody likes confrontation, but it's in the rest of our best interest to maybe gently point out to people what's up with the rules.[/quo


Rattlesnake is a selective gear fishery as well. So they arent paying attention to the rules by any means

[wabowhunter]

OK… so here is a LONG POST with pretty simple view… but this just BURNS ME…

Our culture has an issue (degrading) of “entitlement”… I pay my taxes, I have the RIGHT to fish (even if illegally). The rules are stupid and don’t apply to me, especially if nobody is around to catch me (It’s not wrong if nobody catches me). I have been doing this for years, I have watch every fish I caught with bait (down in the tongue and stomach) and bleeding from the gills swim away just fine, so what do those scientists and studies know…

There are to many issues to really solve this… it is ETHICS and our culture seems to be losing any since of right and wrong. It is a huge spider web of issues. And one of them that has come up is Enforcement since there are so FEW wardens idiots will take the chance and break the law!

I also know from a bit of legal dealings (not in trouble) that when you stand before a judge “Ignorance is not an excuse!”… try telling that to a judge… I didn’t know it was against the law, how was I supposed to know? … In my opinion then give them the time they need in a cell and a set of regulations… and if they can’t read they can stay in the cell until they can.

I have witnessed and reported illegal fishing on numerous occasions, but when I follow up nothing seems to come of the issue. Example is fishing a selective fishers lake in Eastern Washington, Illegal Aliens POACHING (bait and bucket)… call it in, when asking the warden about what the outcome was… the answer was… it doesn’t do any good, giving them a ticket… they don’t have a real address, they can’t pay, and they will be back the next day doing the same thing… ALSO… if you want to watch it in Western Washington head on up to Mineral Lake…BLATANT OVER LIMITS day in day out!!!!!

SO… the answer isn’t … It is to hard to read/figure out the Reg’s, it is ENFORCEMENT and ETHICS. If we can’t start to change the ethics or entitlement mentality then it will need to be more enforcement with more sever punishment.

Solution suggestion…

If you see and report poaching, enforcement (we need to add Law Enforcement, state, local police) should CONFISCATE ALL FISHING GEAR in possession - it will not be returned. If caught a second time CONFISCATE BOAT and CAR/TRUCK – not to be returned. State then sells vehicles and puts money into enforcement budget. If caught a third time it is all above and off to jail for a while and you will be working on a chain gang/road crew picking up trash or working a environmental improvement job. Use all confiscated gear for Youth Education Programs and give it to them at the completion of course.

MY $0.02 WORTH

Mikey…. Here are some facts on mortality… but even if presented with FACTS… the ignorant will just dismiss it as Bullshrimp…

Hooking location – This factor demonstrates the largest source of variation in mortality observed in the studies and experiments reviewed. It is consistently shown that deep-hooking (hooking in the gills or gullet) causes relatively high mortality, up to 35% when accompanied by bleeding, whereas normal hooking (lips or jaw area) consistently causes minimal mortality, which is consistently less than 5% and often less than 1%. The Maryland Department of Natural Resources, in its Recreational Catch and Release Mortality research program concludes that the location of the hook wound is the single most important factor influencing catch and release mortality (4). If the hook wound affects a vital organ, mortality, is high. The location of the wound site has been demonstrated to be a function of hook size, type, the use of natural bait versus artificial lures and additional situational factors. Studies show that when fish are hooked in the lips or jaw area (shallow hooked), mortality is negligible, typically less than 1% (4,5). Conversely, mortality is at its highest when fish are hooked in the esophagus or gills (deep hooked) (5,11). Necropsies performed on gut hooked fish in a study by (5) Grover, et al, found that the majority had sustained major internal damage to the heart, stomach or liver. Grover demonstrates that hooking location effectively correlates to mortality rate.

For above data…
(http://www.acuteangling.com/Reference/C&RMortality.html)

And another soure…

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/es/science/invent ... ooking.pdf

And we know that Canadian’s don’t really count… hahaha… but here is more good information…

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/mnr/pubs/fishi ... elines.pdf

wabowhunter
tight lines and cheers

[The Floater]

I am getting so extremely tired of the false implication, that has been repeatedly expressed in these responses, that "Bait" fishermen, are some kind of a less knowledgable, and respected fisherman; while the "fly" fisherman is a law abiding, knowledgable, and respected "real" fishermen. Before someone begins to get angry and write a quick response back, here me out. First off, I dont have a preference of which style I fish, and it all depends on the conditions and regulations of the water I am fishing. That being said, I believe my statements are fairly un-bias.
Everyone needs to stop blaming this problem on "Bait" fishermen, and start looking at the bigger picture. Problems are occuring on both sides of the spectrum. I fished the Yakima the other day, and saw fly leader packaging, plastic fly tins, chew cans, etc littered throughout. Not to mention the "Squeezing the bejeezus" comment in an earlier posting. The mistreating of our waters and fish is coming from a type of person and not fishermen. If you use bait, pay attention to the size of hook. There is no need for a large treble hook, when you are fishing for a 15'' inch trout?? Use common sense. I recently was at a E. Wash lake where fly guys were outcatching the bait fishermen. Who do you think was way over their limit first, but continued to fish. Every single fly guy that was on the water.
Sorry if I got away from the point, but this really has nothing to do with fishing with bait or not. There is a type of person that does not respect the fish and the environement they are fishing, and that's what is sad. Not what they are fishing with. (as long as it is in the regs).

[raffensg64]

The Floater, I don't think it was anyone's intent to single out bait fishermen. And I agree with you, the problem lies with the person. Bait thrower, hardware guy, or fly fisherman.....they're all capable of violating the law, they just have to make the conscience decision of right vs. wrong.

Did you report those fly fisherman you saw go over limit? Did they actually retain a limit and violate the law? Or are you, as I suspect, unaware that folks using flies and lures can C&R all day if they wish, notwithstanding the fact they should retain damaged fish, ie those hooked in the eye or tongue or exhausted to the point of death. If I see ANYONE doing that I will kindly inform them of the regs, an "on-the-spot-correction" as we used to call it in the military.