2009 Stocking & Other Miscellaneous Info

[Don Wittenberger]

I spoke with Steve Jackson at WDFW about 4 p.m. today, and am posting these updates on several topics we have been discussing on this board the last few days.

2009 Stocking -- We'll probably have about 10,000 tiger muskies this year, not 15,000, of which 7,000 will be 2009 spring plants and the rest will be planted this fall. The fall plants will be about 9" to 10" (compared to 12" to 14" for the spring plants) and suffer twice the mortality, so the 10,000 is equivalent to 8,500 spring plants. WDFW usually plants 6,000 per year, so this is a significant increase over what we normally get. Steve also says our baby muskies look healthy and are growing unusually fast this year. So, we have a lot of good news from the muskie maternity ward to cheer about this year, following last year's stocking moratorium.

Pend O'Reilles River Northern Pike -- WDFW hasn't decided whether it wants to manage this fishery for harvest or trophy. Montana and Idaho encourage catch and kill of pike. Steve says there might be opposition to trophy management because there are small populations of bull trout and cutthroat in the river that a population of large pike could pose a predation threat to. In any case, a decision won't be made in time for the next rulemaking cycle, because of the time required to collect sampling data.

Dead Bait Rule -- Steve suggests limiting this effort to tiger muskies in the next rulemaking cycle, and defer trying to extend it to northern pike until after WDFW has decided on a management plan for northern pike.

[crankbait42]

did he say if they were planted already? also where are they going to be planted at, any new lakes with muskys?

[crankbait42]

whoops sorry forgot it was only 08

[Don Wittenberger]

No decisions have been made yet about where they will be planted. WDFW plans to put tiger muskies in Sprague Lake 3 or 4 years from now, but there won't be any new lakes this year.

[Gone Fishin]

Sprague should be an awesome muskie lake! I spent some time fishing it before the kill off and let me tell you it will be a fun one! Very unique lake with big fish potential! 3 or 4 years is sooner than I was told at one point but that is OK with me.

[kevinb]

Sprague should be an awesome muskie lake! I spent some time fishing it before the kill off and let me tell you it will be a fun one! Very unique lake with big fish potential! 3 or 4 years is sooner than I was told at one point but that is OK with me.

I'll have to add it to my "future list" This is a cool lake

[Don Wittenberger]

Re Sprague Lake, if the initial stocking takes place 4 years from now, and it takes another 4 years for them to grow to trophy size, we are looking at 8 years (2016) before there's trophy fish in there. Just in time for my 70th birthday ...

[YellowBear]

This just keeps getting better and better.
We were not going to have any stocking in 2008 and now we are.
When I talked to the WDFW last fall and asked about the Pike in the Pend Orellie.
They told me that the population was to small to be a concern.
Now it seems they are going to get involved after all.
The WDFW has asked for volunteers, we have Trucks, Boats and manpower still waited to be contacted.
The young Muskie's are growing faster this year? What are they doing this year that they have not done in the past?
The 50 inch rule makes it almost impossible to keep a fish.
Now we are hearing that no dead sticking should be allowed.
This pretty much wipes out bank fishing for Tigers.
When did the Tiger and for that matter the Pike become a warm water species?
The WDFW were offered a pound of Leech's to be tested for VHS.
There answer was that they had NO idea were they could have them tested.

[Don Wittenberger]

Yellow Bear: WDFW didn't put the pike into the Pend O'Reilles River. They migrated from Idaho on their own. Once they're here, WDFW has to decide what to do about them. One thing for sure, you can't poison a whole river system, although WDFW did poison a small lake near Port Angeles where someone had illegally planted them. What do you suggest? Should WDFW turn a blind eye to the presence of northern pike in the Pend O'Reilles, or try to exercise some sort of management control over them, now that they're here?

The problem I see with "dead sticking" tiger muskies is that a muskie caught on dead bait is a dead muskie, whether it's over 50 inches or not. If you're not allowed to harvest a 36-inch or a 45-inch tiger muskie, why should you be allowed to use a fishing technique that kills it? We have a very small number of tiger muskies, and WDFW has correctly decided to manage this species as a sport fishery. If people are allowed to keep fish under 50 inches, the fishery will be wiped out. You're not the only person in Washington who bought a fishing license; how about considering the interests of others?

WDFW's chief fish health biologist imposed a 1-year moratorium on importing tiger muskie eggs. No eggs were brought into Washington in 2007. WDFW never said stocking wouldn't be resumed. The purpose of the moratorium was to give WDFW time to set up a quarantine facility and additional testing to make sure there's no chance of VHS coming into Washington via tiger muskie eggs. That's been done, and WDFW obtained a supply of eggs from Minnesota DNR for planting in 2009. WDFW plans for 6,000 fingerlings per year. Whenever there is higher than expected hatching of eggs and survival of fry, the extra fish are planted in the fall instead of being held over the winter because of limited hatchery space. There is nothing new about this procedure. Survival of the fall plants is much lower, but the alternative is to discard them. It's better to make use of these fish than waste them.

Here's a summary of the major steps being taken to make sure tiger muskies do not bring VHS into Washington:

Step 1: Minnesota tests their broodstock muskies for VHS. These fish are kept in a small, isolated lake that isn't connected to other waters.
Step 2: Because fish are harder to test than eggs, Washington imports only eggs, no fry or fingerlings.
Step 3: Washington disinfects the eggs upon receipt.
Step 4: The muskie fry are raised in a quarantine facility, where both the fish and the water are isolated from other hatchery production and the surrouding ecosystem.
Step 5: The hatchery conducts viral testing on the juvenile tiger muskies twice while they're in quarantine.
Step 6: The fingerlings are released from quarantine only if all the tests are negative. If, at any step of the production process, a single test is positive the entire crop of fingerlings will be destroyed.
Step 7: Effluent water from the tiger muskie rearing tanks is treated with ozone to kill anything that might be in it, then injected into the ground instead of discharged into surface waters. Because rhabdovirus is readily absorbed by bacteria naturally living in soils, any virus that survive the ozone treatment will be neutralized in the ground.

(According to the WDFW biologists, there are actually a total of 17 steps in the tiger muskie safeguard system.)

By contrast, here are the controls on preventing leeches from bringing VHS into Washington:





(Big fat white space)




Leeches, like tiger muskies, are non-native to Washington. They come from the same part of the country as tiger muskies -- the midwest. Leeches are a carrier of both VHS and IAS (invasive aquatic species). Washington gets its certified disease-free tiger muskie eggs from a state game department run by professional biologists. Fishermen get their leeches from a horde of unregulated commercial suppliers. These leeches aren't tested, certified, or inspected by anyone. When an angler takes a container of leeches out onto Potholes or the Columbia River, there's no telling where they came from or what they might be carrying. What the state's chief fish health biologist said at Saturday's IFPAG meeting was, "We don't feel confident we can guarantee leeches won't bring VHS or IAS into Washington." Well, no kidding!

Please don't misunderstand me, YB; a leech ban isn't my idea. I represent a muskie fishing club, and don't generally comment on walleye issues at IFPAG meetings, except to support walleye anglers. I didn't say anything about leeches on Saturday, but between you and me, I would find it difficult to defend the current unregulated importing of leeches. Here's another thing to consider: You can still fish for walleyes without leeches, but we can't fish for tiger muskies without tiger muskies. Funny how you're so worried about tiger muskies despite all the precautions taken in the tiger muskie stocking program, yet you think our state should be wide open to importing leeches over which there's no regulation or control at all. I guess for you it all depends on whose ox is getting gored, doesn't it?

It's my understanding that leeches are used primarily by tournament anglers who believe leeches give them a competitive edge over other baits available to walleye anglers. I appreciate this is important to those guys, but if they want to continue using leeches in tournaments, they should work with WDFW to come up with a plan for dealing with the threat that unregulated leeches could pose to our fisheries. I will support responsible use of leeches by walleye fishermen if someone comes up with a workable plan, for whatever my influence is worth, which probably isn't much. WDFW has talked with the walleye clubs about this, and is trying to work with them on a solution. Merely complaining won't get you there. But once again, don't get me wrong; I'm not faulting you for that. Complaining about government is one of America's favorite sports, a thing worth doing for its own sake, and I like to do it too.

[KUP]

Excellent, thorough and comprehensive report, Don. Thank you.

[Gone Fishin]

Very nice Don!

As far as the Pike in the Pend Oreille, there are plenty of them up there. Anyone who complains about them needs to spend a day on my boat up there, they won't think as ill of this fish afterwards. The only thing I can compare it to is sockeye fishing on the Kenai in Alaska.... Fun! Bass fisherman, I understand the concern but trust me the bass fishing is still absolutely phenominal. The daily bags are only getting bigger as time goes one. I can't believe how many bass we pull out in a day between 3-5lbs! Like no other place! Crappie are getting to larger sizes as well. I think this state needs to truly embrace a world class pike and bass fishery, not look for ways to get rid of them!

[Lucius]

Very nice Don!

As far as the Pike in the Pend Oreille, there are plenty of them up there. Anyone who complains about them needs to spend a day on my boat up there, they won't think as ill of this fish afterwards. The only thing I can compare it to is sockeye fishing on the Kenai in Alaska.... Fun! Bass fisherman, I understand the concern but trust me the bass fishing is still absolutely phenominal. The daily bags are only getting bigger as time goes one. I can't believe how many bass we pull out in a day between 3-5lbs! Like no other place! Crappie are getting to larger sizes as well. I think this state needs to truly embrace a world class pike and bass fishery, not look for ways to get rid of them!

I agree Gone Fishin. Pike (and Muskies for that matter) can coexist with other fish without being detrimental to those other fish. In fact in some instances they improve fisheries. Now in some instances I have heard a lot and I mean a lot of small hammer handle pike can cause some problems to other fisheries because of their horrendous appetite, but with that being said having a lot of small hammer handle pike is also detrimental to the pike fishery itself. Minnesota is a prime example of this situation. Back a decade and a half ago there were no big pike or very few but there were a bunch of hammer handles. The Minnesota Game and Fish imposed a slot limit on the pike anything between 28"-40" (something in that range) had to be returned to the water immediately. From what I hear not only has the pike fishery drastically improved but so did the other fish in the lake as well. I wish and I hope that Washington (Regarding Pike) and even Idaho can realize the potential of the fishery and protect the bigger fish. I want my kids to be able to catch trophy pike some day and I would also like to see North America Break the Germany world record of 55lbs and that type of potential exists here in the pacific northwest. Take for example pike can live up to 30 years. The new Idaho state record fish of 39lbs 13 ounces caught last year was only 7 years old. Just in the spring time last year in Idaho (March-May) I know that 4 pike over 25lbs were kept one of which was the new state record. Of those 4, 3 were 34lbs and bigger (again including the new state record). All I can say, and again agreeing with gone fishin, is I hope people will realize the world class pike potential that occurs here in the Pacific Northwest.

[bad esox]

Don,

Great report! Very to the point and informative. Through education we all become better Anglers.

[kevinb]

Very nice Don!

As far as the Pike in the Pend Oreille, there are plenty of them up there. Anyone who complains about them needs to spend a day on my boat up there, they won't think as ill of this fish afterwards. The only thing I can compare it to is sockeye fishing on the Kenai in Alaska.... Fun! Bass fisherman, I understand the concern but trust me the bass fishing is still absolutely phenominal. The daily bags are only getting bigger as time goes one. I can't believe how many bass we pull out in a day between 3-5lbs! Like no other place! Crappie are getting to larger sizes as well. I think this state needs to truly embrace a world class pike and bass fishery, not look for ways to get rid of them!

I agree Gone Fishin. Pike (and Muskies for that matter) can coexist with other fish without being detrimental to those other fish. In fact in some instances they improve fisheries. Now in some instances I have heard a lot and I mean a lot of small hammer handle pike can cause some problems to other fisheries because of their horrendous appetite, but with that being said having a lot of small hammer handle pike is also detrimental to the pike fishery itself. Minnesota is a prime example of this situation. Back a decade and a half ago there were no big pike or very few but there were a bunch of hammer handles. The Minnesota Game and Fish imposed a slot limit on the pike anything between 28"-40" (something in that range) had to be returned to the water immediately. From what I hear not only has the pike fishery drastically improved but so did the other fish in the lake as well. I wish and I hope that Washington (Regarding Pike) and even Idaho can realize the potential of the fishery and protect the bigger fish. I want my kids to be able to catch trophy pike some day and I would also like to see North America Break the Germany world record of 55lbs and that type of potential exists here in the pacific northwest. Take for example pike can live up to 30 years. The new Idaho state record fish of 39lbs 13 ounces caught last year was only 7 years old. Just in the spring time last year in Idaho (March-May) I know that 4 pike over 25lbs were kept one of which was the new state record. Of those 4, 3 were 34lbs and bigger (again including the new state record). All I can say, and again agreeing with gone fishin, is I hope people will realize the world class pike potential that occurs here in the Pacific Northwest.

In this case,I can't bring science or natural fish behavior. When I was at Curlew a few weeks ago,I saw muskies and bass co-existing very well.It seemed as if the bass would hover around the tigers for protection.It was obvious that tigers had no interests in bass or trout....at all. While I was there,I spoke to a gentleman who makes annual trips to Curlew for the past 25 years,who stated the fishing was the best he had seen it ever in his life and credited it all to the introduction of the tiger muskies.A larger,healthier set of rainbows....and the proof was on his stringer. Very nice indeed,did anyone give that guy a card?#-o

[mtsiview]

Touche' Don, Great report!

[Gone Fishin]

I'm just glad he's (Don) on our side!

[YellowBear]

So, let me make this one point very clear.
I personally have nothing against the Tiger or the Pike.
As a matter of fact I will be on the Pend Orellie for a couple of weeks here real soon.
Some of the questions that I have brought up and did not get addressed, like When did the Pike and the Tiger become a warm water species?
I do know that the WDFW had nothing to do with the Pike getting into the Pend Orellie and I doubt they migrated from Idaho on there own.

Don made it very clear again how much they test for VHS in the eggs.
My question is , if they test for VHS in the eggs then why don't they have some idea of where at least to test the Leech's?
I could care less if they ban the Leech in this state but others that I know make a living on them.
When ever they rehab a lake, it seems they use the excuse that it will help resort owners and the local economy.
What is the difference between a resort owner making a living on a lake or a bait shop?
Wouldn't a local bait shop be part of the local economy?

It has been pointed out here on this forum the horrendous appetite of the Pike.
As the Tiger is only half Pike I guess they would eat less,

I do agree that dead sticking kills more fish, but if you take bank fishing away from the public, many folks that pay there money for this program will be excluded.

Someday I would like to see the WDFW address a group of fisherman that represents all species.
They do a pretty good job when they talk to Walleye guys, they just tell them what they want to here.
Same with the Bass Anglers and the Muskie men.
What do you think would happen if they had to address everyone at one time?
Do you think they could answer all the questions?

We are still waiting to hear from the WDFW on the volunteer projects that they were looking for help on.
Personally I think it would be a great opportunity for them to show some of us, just how ( misinformed they say we are).

[Don Wittenberger]

Yellow Bear, I'd like to ask you a question, if you don't mind ... have you ever seen or heard of anyone fishing for tiger muskies from the bank with dead bait, and if so did they catch anything, i.e. do some people fish for them this way and does it work to the best of your knowledge?

[mtsiview]

I do agree that dead sticking kills more fish, but if you take bank fishing away from the public, many folks that pay there money for this program will be excluded.




[/quote]

YB, It seems to me that there are a lot of selective gear only lakes and rivers in this state and they all seem to have more than enough fishermen lining their banks and fishing from drift boats. Why is it that you think stopping the use of bait for musky fishing would stop bank fishermen from purchasing fishing licenses? There are entire businesses built on selling flies and lures to people that never use natural baits. These fly shops and lure manufacturers don't seem to hurt for business, fact is, when I go into the local fly shops I have to wait in line for service. Secondly, can the bank fishermen not throw bucktails and crankbaits just like the rest of us do from a boat? I personally know fishermen that belong to our local chapter, who fish almost exclusively from the dikes and shores of Lake Tapps and enjoy catching fish on a regular basis. Oddly enough, they are tossing Rapalas and bucktails and CPR all of the fish they catch so that they might be caught again someday.

[YellowBear]

Don, there are a few guys fishing evergreen with herring and doing pretty good.
Dead sticking is also a popular presentation in the early spring for Pike and Muskie.

mtsiview, I hear what you are saying but some folks can't afford a drift boat and for the cost of one in line buck tail, they can get a hole bag of herring.

So let me ask you fellas again, when did the Pike and Muskie become a warm water species?
I would also like to ask one more time, if the WDFW can test the eggs for VHS, then why don't they have some idea at least were they can test the Leech's?
After all they are Biologist's, aren't they?