Pre-Spawn

[kevinb]

So I still don't have over whelming proof of muskies moving into shallows. However,I have been bouncing these questions off some muskie anglers back in the mid-west. I've gotten a ton of feedback that supports they do instinctivly move up. Makes sense,I don't think you could wipe out thousands of years of evolution. I'm waiting for a reply from a gentleman who works with the tiger muskies. Don't quote me here,but I think he's with Wisconsin's Department of Fish and Game.
When I get more info. I will post it.

So,today I had to run some arrands up in the Lake Tapps area. When I was finished,I figured I'd take my son around the North Tapps Park. I was walking along the shorline when I saw this tiger sitting motionless in about 4feet of water. I sware he was watching me. As I got closer,he slowly moved on. It was a really cool expierience.My son,who is approaching 2 years old was able to see him too and say "Fish,...fish..? So thats my borring story,..I'm not saying that tiger was pretend spawning. But was very surprised to see him at all considering the water is still really cold.

[PDXFisher]

The Tigers will move into the shallows, but that in itself isn't evidence of a spawning mentality. Tigers like it warm, that's why you saw it there. If the shallows are warmer than deep, many will go shallow to feed and digest until it gets too warm (or the oxygen is too depleted, which is closely related). They go shallow up past 80 degrees. Of course, nobody should be fishing for them when it gets that hot, it's terribly rough on the fish to fight in those conditions.

I have no opinion on whether Tigers have some sort of biological imperative to exhibit spawning behavior. I just don't think fish in the shallows is necessarily evidence of such. I fish for Muskies in Minnesota in the shallows in the summer and fall, four or five months after they were done spawning. All the Muskies my buddies and I caught there last year in were in less than five feet of water. The muskies I caught the last three days of February in Illinois on Kinkaid (pre-spawn) were up shallow, except the one we caught trolling (while it was snowing). They were just trying to get warm, as the water was 36 degrees in the main lake, but up to 41 in the shallows. We got eight that day. The day before, we were busting ice in the guide's Ranger for four hours just to clear a spot big enough to cast in. This year I plan to better learn to catch the ones in deeper water to give myself more options.

[cyberlunge]

When I had originally suggested that the fish may be showing a spawning like behavior it was due to the mention by a few people of their relative location. Muskies spawn in warmer water than pike, one of the reasons for low fecundity of the Musky. They also tend to spawn in deeper water with less vegetation present than Pike. If they are indeed exhibiting said behavior I have no idea which species would be dominant in terms of influence?? Here it is common for Pike to spawn under the ice with the muskies following some weeks later, the natural overlap during rapidly warming springs is the cause of the natural hybrids that we have which are EXTREMELY rare. Lake Saint Clair produced a few last year out of the tens of thousands of naturals caught and I know of only a couple others (reliable). So as a firm believer in intrinsic behavior I would have a hard time believeing that these fish dont feel the urge to spawn whether they can or not, as mentioned there ar a zillion other reasons for them to move shallow number one being follow the food, small males also seem to be rather gregarious and will hang out just because they see other fish and wonder what is going on. I would also argue that spawning pike in lakes that have them would trigger the tigers into a spawning mode through their behavior causing them to follow into the shallows. What I would look for is during the period immediate post spawn temp wise would be to look for emerging weeds in adjacent deeper water 8 to 15ft that is where we always find the fish early in the year, once the spawn is over they are looking for food which is lookin for cover in the newly growing weeds. Helpful? maybe maybe not just theories at this point but at least the price is right....
Kevin

[kevinb]

When I had originally suggested that the fish may be showing a spawning like behavior it was due to the mention by a few people of their relative location. Muskies spawn in warmer water than pike, one of the reasons for low fecundity of the Musky. They also tend to spawn in deeper water with less vegetation present than Pike. If they are indeed exhibiting said behavior I have no idea which species would be dominant in terms of influence?? Here it is common for Pike to spawn under the ice with the muskies following some weeks later, the natural overlap during rapidly warming springs is the cause of the natural hybrids that we have which are EXTREMELY rare. Lake Saint Clair produced a few last year out of the tens of thousands of naturals caught and I know of only a couple others (reliable). So as a firm believer in intrinsic behavior I would have a hard time believeing that these fish dont feel the urge to spawn whether they can or not, as mentioned there ar a zillion other reasons for them to move shallow number one being follow the food, small males also seem to be rather gregarious and will hang out just because they see other fish and wonder what is going on. I would also argue that spawning pike in lakes that have them would trigger the tigers into a spawning mode through their behavior causing them to follow into the shallows. What I would look for is during the period immediate post spawn temp wise would be to look for emerging weeds in adjacent deeper water 8 to 15ft that is where we always find the fish early in the year, once the spawn is over they are looking for food which is lookin for cover in the newly growing weeds. Helpful? maybe maybe not just theories at this point but at least the price is right....
Kevin

cyberlunge,once again thanks for the info. I look forward to catching up with you and hitting up some tigers and if possible,maybe some walleye too. Talk to 'ya later.
Kevin

[PDXFisher]

I've also read that Muskies spawn in the same type of waters as Pike, unless there are Pike present. On Leech Lake in Minnesota, for instance, they've evolved over time to spawn in different areas so as to decrease YoY predation. I've also heard differing opinions on optimal temperature for Tigers. In the Barry Reynolds book, Pike on the Fly, it says Tigers prefer water temp to be 70 degrees, right in between Pike at 65 and Muskies at 75. I've also read that Tigers can handle warmer water than Pike or Muskies. Then some people say 68 degrees is optimal Muskie temperature. Ultimately, all it seems to indicate is that we're pretty clueless. We have all sorts of observed behavior but no proof as to the why. For pretty obvious reasons, we know the least about the hybrid. I wish we could just ask a Tiger when we see one in two foot water, "dude, why do you go there, anyway?" because until they tell us, I'm not sure we're really going to know ;)

[kevinb]

[quote="PDXFisher"]I've also read that Muskies spawn in the same type of waters as Pike, unless there are Pike present. On Leech Lake in Minnesota, for instance, they've evolved over time to spawn in different areas so as to decrease YoY predation. I've also heard differing opinions on optimal temperature for Tigers. In the Barry Reynolds book, Pike on the Fly, it says Tigers prefer water temp to be 70 degrees, right in between Pike at 65 and Muskies at 75. I've also read that Tigers can handle warmer water than Pike or Muskies. Then some people say 68 degrees is optimal Muskie temperature. Ultimately, all it seems to indicate is that we're pretty clueless. We have all sorts of observed behavior but no proof as to the why. For pretty obvious reasons, we know the least about the hybrid. I wish we could just ask a Tiger when we see one in two foot water, "dude, why do you go there, anyway?" because until they tell us, I'm not sure we're really going to know ]

haha,no kidding. The more I try to figure this out,the bigger the headache and eventually ending up with more questions.

[Gone Fishin]

Well to add a little to this. Biologically tiger muskies can't breed. I think most of us know this. They do however produce sex organs. People have questioned the sterility of the fish because they catch an egg filled female. They do produce the parts, problem is they don't work. They cannot combine egg and sperm to get a working product. It has to do with the number of chromosomes or more specifically the fact that instead of pairs like most organisms, they have triplets of each chromosome, hence the name triploid (same as trout). In order for these to combine to make a fertile product the stars have to line up, pigs have to fly, and hell would freeze just like the lakes here, all on the same day. It aint gonna happen!

So in theory tiger muskies could go through the spawning procedure but nothing would happen with the eggs. Problem with that is, with sex organs that don't really work, they lack the desire to spawn. Because they don't all they have to do in life is eat, which is why they grow so fast, also the reason that the triploid trout get the football shape. They eat too much too fast and all the energy they produce goes into growth, none to reproduction.

This doesn't really answer the question posed but it adds another insight into the biology of this fish.

[Don Wittenberger]

I'm not a biologist, but from what I've read in various places, I'm under the impression that male tiger muskies are always sterile but some female tiger muskies are fertile and can produce young by mating with a muskellunge.

[kevinb]

Wow,this is really good stuff and I appreciate all the input. I've gotten some feedback from the midwest.Still nothing concrete and the reality is we probably really won't. But it would seem that tiger's do move into shallows. To make myself clear,I am not saying they are spawning or following food. All I'm trying to figure out if genetics and/or natural pike and true muskie evolution would still be implanted into a tiger's head causing it to move into the shallows and/or staging. I'm not so much concerned about if the tigers make the "love"motion,unless I can use that knowledge to catch more. I will share more info. when I get it. Once again,thank you all for your help. The more I dig into this question,the bigger the headache.haha

[muskyhunter]

All I know is that even the natural mating of the two species is not rare but it does not happen all the time. I can remember fishing back in Wisconsin you'd always here the stories of the hybrids. And that was only in the lakes that had both Pike and Musky in them but not very often were the hybrids caught. It was very seldom that you caught a hybrid. And if guys caught them they kept them. Its also of my exerience that more of the tigers were caught in the southern part of the state than up in the Class A Musky lakes up north....just one mans experience.