Salmon for fertilizer? or just eggs?

[Mike Carey]

Agreed. Respect for wildlife is something that some people don't seem to understand.

I frequently take new fisherman out from this message board that are eager to learn how to catch salmon. I enjoy sharing my knowledge about this resource with those eager to get into the sport, and I hope that they pick up on the ethical way to do things from me. I have made some great friends from this website by doing this and will continue to offer when I can.

I wish there was a fisherman safety class (similar to hunter safety) that is required before first buying a license (or at least a catch record card for salmon/steelhead). Perhaps this would offer the education that some folks need to learn before hitting the water and slaying chrome for the first time. Many people are not fortunate enough to grow up in a family where it is taught to respect nature and wildlife.

Very well said. I appreciate your approach. Rather than belittle you educate. Something others could learn from.

[mizm05]

Jim,

Before you make assumptions about someone you don't know, maybe think twice before commenting if you weren't there yourself. I'll post a pic of the hook when I get a chance to upload it. I pinched it as far as I could. If you've ever used a Brad's brand hook, you'd know those things must be made of depleted uranium steel because those barbs don't break off, you simply bend them as far as you can get them. And yes, this warden was being a hard ass. Had he taken the few extra seconds to actually whip out his flashlight and look at the hook in the light, he would see that I had it pinched. I know it's hard to believe, but there are hard ass wardens out there...especially on the Cow.

I'm not intentionally bending the law. The warden was in the wrong, and I was sharp enough to prove it in court. That makes me a rule bender?

Don't judge brother. You weren't there and you don't know me.

As far as the chum and differing opinions on what's wasting or not...to be honest, if a guy caught it legally and punched his card, I say it's his business what he does with it when he gets home. Last I checked, America was supposed to still be a free country. Now again, don't take that statement and twist. It's a broad general statement outlining my view on freedom in general. If I use it as fertilizer to feed my veggies, which in turn my family eats, and I caught it legally and punched it on my card...who's business is that really? I'm not poaching, going over limit, or keeping fish that don't get punched on the card. Not exactly a fan of Big Brother if you couldn't tell. LOL

The problem is not the definition it is the fact that our culture thinks it is ok to bend Truth or Fact to suit ourselves. Mizm05 had you properly pinched your barb no warden would have dicked you around, I have dealt with them. You more than likely left as much of the prick hanging so you could do exactly what I am talking about. BEND the law based on some definition you can use to suit your purposes. The argument should not be about a freakin word.

The argument should be about when a person should retain a fish. No one.... correction, not many here would say it is ok to retain a native steelhead for just it's eggs and then compost the body. Why is that different than Chum? Is it because the population of that species is so much lower? yea I think that is why. But look at the flippin numbers, this is how you get "rare" species. Harvest all the re-producing fish. Oh the WDFW, NOAA, NMFS, NPS, The FBI they are all there to do this for us. Yea they did a banger job with so many other species. Reality check these organizations are made of people that do our bidding. So if you want to see numbers decrease just keep spreading this wasteful mentality and these organizations, budgets and public policies will follow en suit.

Unfortunately this difference in opinion is why that HOG group is cruising around harassing people now. Just yesterday I watched two of these guys push a kid into the Green river who was trying to floss a chum right off it's Redd. Poor kid lost his pole and had to walk out soaking wet.

[mizm05]

And for those that say I'm not ethical and/or don't respect nature...why do you say that? Because my opinions and beliefs differ from your own? I honestly don't believe I'm wasting the fish. My garden absolutely explodes the next spring after using fish carcasses as fertilizer. So because I don't believe I'm wasting the fish, I'm an unethical, rule bending, disrespectful nature waster?

If I was dumping the carcass in a ditch, I understand that...but I'm putting it to good use, and am getting awesome vegetables!

But I guess it's a moot point for me this season since I haven't kept a single chum, and don't want to run into them in the first place. Everything this season has gone to the dinner table.

[W4y]

I wonder what people would think if the WDFW regs said something to the effect of "You may use fish caught legally anyway you want, just don't throw it away". I wonder if people thinking using fish carcass as fertilizer would still think it's unethical or unsportsman. There may be a exposure bias in my thought experiment.

[jd39]

I'd bet a lot us bury our filleted carcasses in our gardens, I do, and my garden does awesome, more tomatoes than i can eat. No need to throw a whole carcass in there at all, well whole carcass sans eggs. My objection is to killing a salmon simply for eggs. I wont even do that with pinks. There is absolutely no need to throw a whole salmon in a garden, so it's being killed for eggs alone. I think they are much more valuable then eggs and worm food.
I'm with spoonman and his grandpa, you kill it you eat it. Anything less is disrespectful.
W4y - i think a lot of us would still think it wrong regardless of the reg because of how we value the fish and were raised to regard life.
Anyway, have said my peace on this topic. Thanks for starting the thread Cascadian, hope to fish with you sometime.
Mizm5 - appreciate your candor and respectfully arguing your point of view although i do disagree with it. I hope you continue to not target chum or kill any salmon you don't plan to eat.
Tight lines all!

[mizm05]

Jerry,

The way the book is currently written, you can't say I have committed a wildlife violation. Either way...we don't seem to see eye to eye on much, so I just take the comments with a grain of salt.

I can appreciate differing beliefs/opinions. And I love a good, civil debate....as long as it stays civil.

[spoonman]

Do whatever you want. Just my 2 cents. There is right and there is wrong, moral relativism is not a good enough excuse to me. Now im not actually comparing the two just making a point, but if stealing was legal, it would still be wrong. Not busting your chops, just giving my opinion in the hopes maybe it will make people think about the issue and change their ways. Im not perfect and dont know anyone who is. We could all use a little improvement im sure.

[jumpinjim]

Mizm05: I apologize I was just trying to respond to what you wrote. You said you crimped the barb, the warden ran is finger up and down and disagreed therefore you got a ticket. You got it dropped in court. Getting it dropped in court doesn't mean you didn't do something wrong though. You know how many tickets are dropped everyday due to legalities, loopholes, simple miss filed details or just not having the proper people present. My point is this, I think most of us have all crimped a barb and looked at it and wondered, hmmm I wonder if that is enough. You run your finger over it and feel a lil something but the barb looks pinched, perfect balance for everyone. I can argue it's pinched but there is a little prick to my advantage. When a warden is in a bad mood that might be just enough combined with some attitude to put it over the edge. I am certainly not saying this is the case at all *SERIOUS* but if a warden saw someone say, flossing or trying to snag and they never were successful he could even just use that as an opportunity to teach a final lesson, ticket the barb because it was questionable. What I am trying to say is that I have never once run into a Warden that gave me grief because I really do respect the resource and when they see that they consider you on their team, not just someone they are policing.

From all of your posts I would say I am not assuming anything about you, I am coming to a conclusion of my own opinion based on what you write.

This is not about barbs, or me or you, rather a nice discussion about protecting a resource we both clearly enjoy. There are things we can all do to protect that resource and while I agree, I don't like Big Government Either, the problem is that we clearly, can't police ourselves any longer. We make our own rules and then we all bend, stretch and break them feeling like we have some right to do so.

While I don't agree with your view on the matter, I am not trying to attack you at all.

[mizm05]

Thanks Jim. I respect your point of view. You're entitled to your opinion about me...no argument there. While I don't agree with your assessment, it's your assessment and I appreciate you coming back on to clarify.

And I guess I do my part to protect that particular resource by trying to avoid them in the first place. Which is why I commented on how I'm loving the fact that the systems I'm fishing don't get a chum run. I would rather not run into them at all to be honest.

[jumpinjim]

That too is something to be applauded, if you don't want to catch em don't target them, so Good on ya there!

[whorde]

As mism points out, the regulation does not say file off the barb completely. It says to pinch it down. How far? If YOU decide that means to file it off completely, that's your business. If he decides to squeeze his 1/4 of the way, that's his business. Take a class in insurance. You'll find out that words are very important in court, and not subject to your interpretation as they are in the real world. For example, business policies define differently, and do not protect against both, theft and burglary. The only difference? If you leave your front door open and something is stolen, vs if they break your front door and then steal it. In both cases your property is stolen, but you do NOT receive replacement value in both cases unless you buy additional coverage.

The law says pinch down, so if you make ANY attempt to pinch it down, in court, you win. What the game warden writing the ticket thinks, and what members of this forum think, are entirely irrelevant.

Now the "for human consumption" .... it's quite a stretch, and probably wouldn't hold up in court, to say you fed it to your tomatoes and ate the tomatoes.

In any case, I just thought I would spend some time writing this rather than working, as the boss is in a meeting, and given the tone of this thread it's about to be deleted heh. Too many people can't accept that their opinion isn't shared by others.

I, for one, apply common sense to my opinions of "the law". I smash barbs, ALL THE WAY, in BOTH fresh and salt water. Period. I dont care a bit what the regulations say I can use. I think you're an idiot if you dont smash your barbs, as you tear up the fish getting it out and there's no one here who takes home every single fish they catch every day. Also, I dont believe in wasting salmon. But if you punch it and take it home for fertilizer? You took it legally, it's yours, do what you want. Next are you zealots going to attack the old man down at Lake Ballinger who feeds is cat some of what he catches? Is his cat "waste"? And on that note, if you want to go out on a Tuesday, catch 500 dogfish, chop them in half, and throw them back to feed the crabs? I wouldn't bat an eye. Dogfish are like dandelions - they're the weeds of the ocean. The entire rest of the ocean biomass is less fit and healthy due to their extreme overpopulation. But on the other hand, indiscriminate slaughter with high seas drift netting? I'm all for sending the F16s to bomb them in the middle of the ocean right now, today. No warning, no rescue.

If you disagree with any of those opinions, go right ahead! Doesn't bother me a bit!

[mizm05]

Well said Whorde. The funny thing about the barb ticket is that I did try to pinch it down as far as I could. If you've ever tried to pinch a Brad's hook, you know what I'm talking about. I swear they stole some Adamantium from the Wolverine Project and used it to make hooks! Either way, I was using Brad's because you can get a 50 pack for $5. I now buy Gami or Owner barbless. Not looking for a ticket in the first place, and definitely not trying to bend or break any rules...regardless of what people may think of me.

[Shad_Eating_Grin]

...And on that note, if you want to go out on a Tuesday, catch 500 dogfish, chop them in half, and throw them back to feed the crabs? I wouldn't bat an eye. Dogfish are like dandelions - they're the weeds of the ocean. The entire rest of the ocean biomass is less fit and healthy due to their extreme overpopulation. ...

If you disagree with any of those opinions, go right ahead! Doesn't bother me a bit!

Just to clarify for the readers out there:

YOU MAY NOT Intentionally waste fish or shellfish. This includes
mutilating or clipping fins and then returning to
the water any live fish (such as dogfish ). Page 12

Bottomfish Includes Pacific cod, Pacific
tomcod, Pacific hake (or whiting), walleye
pollock, all species of dabs, sole and flounders
(except Pacific halibut), lingcod, ratfish,
sablefish, cabezon, greenling, buffalo sculpin,
great sculpin, red Irish lord, brown Irish
lord, Pacific staghorn sculpin, wolfeel, giant
wrymouth, plainfin midshipman, all species of
shark, skate, rockfish, rattail, and surf perches
excluding shiner perch.

Marine area 10: BOTTOMFISH Year-round season. Daily limit is a total of 15 BOTTOMFISH (see definition page 10) regardless of species...

[whorde]

see all those bottomfish you list? every single one is strongly negatively impacted by the gross overabundance of dogfish.

too bad the ONLY thing they are good for is fertilizer! it's unfortunate there isn't some fertilizer company gill netting them by the hundred thousand. would be good for everyone. but that would be a bit of a stretch for the big thinkers in government to encourage such.

instead, what we get is a ban on catching rock fish.

[W4y]

see all those bottomfish you list? every single one is strongly negatively impacted by the gross overabundance of dogfish.

too bad the ONLY thing they are good for is fertilizer! it's unfortunate there isn't some fertilizer company gill netting them by the hundred thousand. would be good for everyone. but that would be a bit of a stretch for the big thinkers in government to encourage such.

instead, what we get is a ban on catching rock fish.

There is actually a thriving commercial fishery in England for dogfish. It's a popular for fish and chips.

[Mike Carey]

One man's ground beef is another's t-bone steak...

[Cascadian]

Mism05 - It is not only about the chum. I am just as upset about people taking any salmon or steelhead from the rivers and dumping it in the dirt after harvesting the eggs. You say you are not intentionally breaking or bending any rules.. would a written statement on this matter from WDFW help clarify that you are indeed breaking rules and would be cited if caught? Of course it is unlikely you would ever be caught unless you go around announcing your intentions with your taken fish.

It blows my mind that you started fishing for salmon a year ago and have already developed such a hard stance on what you are doing. I would think at a year into any outdoor sport, you probably have a lot to learn still and if the majority of the community as well as law enforcement is telling you what you are doing is wrong, then maybe you need to rethink your actions.

In the end, one man doing this can't really do much damage and I doubt you will ever stop what you are doing, so I say go on and do whatever you want. Just please keep your mouth shut about it so more new impressionable people to this sport don't hear you or read your posts bragging about throwing carcasses in the dirt and decide that is acceptable behavior for everyone.

The unspoken rule of eat everything you keep among sportsman often limits the number of fish taken out of our river systems. I know, for me and several other fisherman I know, we start releasing most fish by the end of October because our freezers are already full. If everyone continued to harvest limits everyday just to get the eggs and chuck the rest, that is just more impact on these resources that are already diminished.

By the way, why do you hide your face in your photos?

[spoonman]

One man's ground beef is another's t-bone steak...

Ew.

[whorde]

There is actually a thriving commercial fishery in England for dogfish. It's a popular for fish and chips.

I may have to start an export company! Last time I was trying to catch flounder I got 2 flounder and 10+ dogfish in not much over an hour just with 1 rod. With a commercial setup I'll bet I could catch 50 an hour! Plus I'd get the periodic delicious flounder!

[dadamunky]

Cascadian, why you so worried about Miz? You really that bored that you need to see a picture of his/her avatar?

This thread should be deleted, same eastsider vs westsider, drift vs bait, purist garbage thats posted on every other site and forum...

I get it Cascadian, you are Father Nature, congrats man and Springer Jerry graduated from an Ivy League school and was a 7 day champ on jeopardy.

Springer Jerry, you ever get tired of listening to yourself?

I'm sure exhausted by your posts.