A Note on Squawfish

[kingroobes]

A lot of people hate on the northern pikeminnow (squawfish) because they eat salmon and steelhead smolt. Because of this, some people kill them thinking it will help the salmon/steelhead population. Unfortunately this is not how an ecosystem works. Squawfish have coexisted with salmon and steelhead for thousands of years with no ill effect to their populations. They are actually beneficial in that they prey on the weaker smolts, leaving only the strong to survive (survival of the fittest). This is known as natural selection. Their predation is a selection pressure that results in a more successful population of salmon/steelhead that are more fitted to their environment that go on to breed more healthy robust fish.

Granted, there are catch and kill programs like on the Columbia, and for the right reasons. Dams have led to an overpopulation boom for squawfish. These fish need to be removed to keep the ecosystem balanced. But, if there is no catch and kill program on the area you are fishing, don't feel like you need to go on a killing spree. Sure, you can kill a few and use them for bait, and I've been guilty of feeding one to the birds in the past. But don't hate on the squawfish. They aren't your enemy, just a little misunderstood.

[Weekend-warrior17]

I'd rather catch a "weaker" Salmon/ Steelhead than not a one. That's where i stand. The only thing i see them good for is taking contagious illness out of the loop by eating them young.
If a squaw fish has an ambush point to harvest Steelhead smolt it don't matter if the smolt is "Weak" THEY WILL eat the unsuspecting "Strong" smolt as well. Lol
Squaw fish make the best trapping bait or fertilizer.

[kingroobes]

If a squaw fish has an ambush point to harvest Steelhead smolt it don't matter if the smolt is "Weak" THEY WILL eat the unsuspecting "Strong" smolt as well. Lol.

"Survival of the fittest" is a misnomer. It doesn't necessarily have to do with physical fitness. An 'unsuspecting "strong" smolt' will get weeded out just like a "weak" smolt because it is not fit to survive in it's environment. It is not a "strong smolt" if it doesn't survive. The ones that are fit to survive will be cunning enough to not get eaten. This is how natural selection works.

[Weekend-warrior17]

An 'unsuspecting "strong" smolt' will get weeded out just like a "weak" smolt because it is not fit to survive in it's environment. It is not a "strong smolt" if it doesn't survive.

"Survival of the fittest" is a misnomer. It doesn't necessarily have to do with physical fitness. An 'unsuspecting "strong" smolt' will get weeded out just like a "weak" smolt because it is not fit to survive in it's environment. It is not a "strong smolt" if it doesn't survive. The ones that are fit to survive will be cunning enough to not get eaten. This is how natural selection works.

I'd have to disagree for a couple reasons. Key word : Ambush (Blind side) its a strategy that has been used since . . FOREVER and doesn't have anything to do with the strength or ability of the enemy. Ever watch football? or The T.v show Survivor? Yep those are a couple examples. Just because you get ambushed or blind sided doesn't necessarily mean you are weak. A squaw fish is a large predatory fish (Invasive predatory fish!!) picking off small inexperienced juvenile smolt when they're just starting out. It isn't a challenge for even the strongest to be beat by something 10x there size obviously sure the VERY best are going to be the only survivors are you saying that every smolt eaten by a northern pike minnow would/ could not come back and produce strong offspring? , and how is it fair to let an invasive fish be the deciding factor on if we have a "strong" run of fish or not?

[Anglinarcher]

My position on Squawfish, kill them all and let God sort them out. Ooops, I was Army, not Marines.

[Amx]

My position on Squawfish, kill them all and let the Eagles, and Hawks eat them. Ooops, I was Army, not Marines.

Fixed. lol

[kingroobes]

An 'unsuspecting "strong" smolt' will get weeded out just like a "weak" smolt because it is not fit to survive in it's environment. It is not a "strong smolt" if it doesn't survive.

"Survival of the fittest" is a misnomer. It doesn't necessarily have to do with physical fitness. An 'unsuspecting "strong" smolt' will get weeded out just like a "weak" smolt because it is not fit to survive in it's environment. It is not a "strong smolt" if it doesn't survive. The ones that are fit to survive will be cunning enough to not get eaten. This is how natural selection works.

I'd have to disagree for a couple reasons. Key word : Ambush (Blind side) its a strategy that has been used since . . FOREVER and doesn't have anything to do with the strength or ability of the enemy. Ever watch football? or The T.v show Survivor? Yep those are a couple examples. Just because you get ambushed or blind sided doesn't necessarily mean you are weak. A squaw fish is a large predatory fish (Invasive predatory fish!!) picking off small inexperienced juvenile smolt when they're just starting out. It isn't a challenge for even the strongest to be beat by something 10x there size obviously sure the VERY best are going to be the only survivors are you saying that every smolt eaten by a northern pike minnow would/ could not come back and produce strong offspring? , and how is it fair to let an invasive fish be the deciding factor on if we have a "strong" run of fish or not?

1. Football and the show survivor have nothing to do with biology.

2. Northern pikeminnow are not an invasive species. They are a native species. They have coexisted with salmon for thousands of years.

3. Squawfish are just one selection pressure on salmon. Through thousands of years of evolution, salmon have adapted to evade predators and predators have adapted catch salmon in a predator-prey relationship. Smolts aren't "inexperienced". They have a reptilian brain. They are genetically programed at birth to be able hide/evade from predators because of natural selection, just as squawfish are programed to find and eat smolts.

4. Yes, not every well adapted fish will live to reproduce, and some ill adapted fish will live to reproduce, it is by chance, being in the wrong place at the wrong time or the right place at the right time. This is called genetic drift, or random sampling. However, in nature this is not common enough to effect the genetics of a large population like salmon.

5. Look at another predator of salmon, Bull trout. Bull trout prey on salmon eggs, but biologist look at a healthy bull trout population as a sign of a healthy salmon population. How is this so? They generally eat the diseased and weak ones. The result is a thriving salmon population.

6. You can't "disagree" with basic biology

[natetreat]

5. Look at another predator of salmon, Bull trout. Bull trout prey on salmon eggs, but biologist look at a healthy bull trout population as a sign of a healthy salmon population. How is this so? They generally eat the diseased and weak ones. The result is a thriving salmon population.

6. You can't "disagree" with basic biology

I don't know anything about pike minnows, but I do know that Dollies love to munch on some hatchery smolt. The Cascade River is prime illustration of that. When they let the smolt out, you can watch the dollies cut through them like seals on herring. That's one of the reasons why I don't feel too guilty about taking one home to eat every now and again from the Sky or Skagit. I swear, the concentration of Dollies in the Cascade that time of year is like seals at a dam. They have a buffet, all you can eat. I've seen schools of them 30 or 40 fish thick.

As far as squaws, if the population is impacted by changing conditions, like on the Big C, I say have at 'em. Keep 'em and use them for fertilizer on other rivers. Or crab bait. Or cat food. The raw food craze is real big with some of my friends. You don't have to waste 'em, but feel free to fill a bucket.

[Weekend-warrior17]

Agruing over squaw's. Smh. Not worth it. I'm sure you got my point bub.

4. Yes, not every well adapted fish will live to reproduce, and some ill adapted fish will live to reproduce, it is by chance, being in the wrong place at the wrong time or the right place at the right time. This is called genetic drift, or random sampling. However, in nature this is not common enough to effect the genetics of a large population like salmon.

[/quote][/quote]

Over population of squawfish (Most fisheries) and decreased salmon populations (Most area's) there will be a considerable effect on a population of salmon. End of story.

Lets say there was a serious outbreak on the op with the wild steelhead smolt . I'd guess nothing good would come of it.

[kingroobes]

My point being, unless there is a known over poplulation of northern pikeminnow, we shouldn't try and eradicate them. It is perfectly legal to harvest them and anglers can do so if they please, but to purposely catch and kill them when there is no over population thinking it helps salmonid populations is scientifically wrong and could possibly even harm the salmonid population.

Just look what happened to wolves in North America

[kingroobes]

Agruing over squaw's. Smh. Not worth it. I'm sure you got my point bub.

4. Yes, not every well adapted fish will live to reproduce, and some ill adapted fish will live to reproduce, it is by chance, being in the wrong place at the wrong time or the right place at the right time. This is called genetic drift, or random sampling. However, in nature this is not common enough to effect the genetics of a large population like salmon.

[/quote]

Over population of squawfish (Most fisheries) and decreased salmon populations (Most area's) there will be a considerable effect on a population of salmon. End of story.

Lets say there was a serious outbreak on the op with the wild steelhead smolt . I'd guess nothing good would come of it.[/quote]

We saying the same thing. Yes, when there is overpopulation of squaws it has a negative effect on salmon. My point is that squawfish aren't bad fish, only in overpopulation. In a normal population they can be beneficial to the ecosystem, just like they have for thousands of years.

[Weekend-warrior17]

^^^ So what your saying is pretty much (Example:) Walk around with a gun off safety without the capability of realizing it has the ability to fire until it goes off and kills someone then put it on safety and call it good and go from there , Yeah no thanks. I value Salmon and Steelhead a little more than that (SORRY NOT SORYY PETA) . Solution to your "Basic science" is Purdy simple.

[kingroobes]

^^^ So what your saying is pretty much (Example:) Walk around with a gun off safety without the capability of realizing it has the ability to fire until it goes off and kills someone then put it on safety and call it good and go from there , Yeah no thanks. I value Salmon and Steelhead a little more than that (SORRY NOT SORYY PETA) . Solution to your "Basic science" is Purdy simple.

No, and this analogy not very good. We know there is overpopulation on the columbia and that is why there is bounty.

Try reading this if you need help understanding how evolution works

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_dr ... _selection" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kingroobes]

Sigh... well I knew this might happen if I tried to defend the lowly squawfish. I just wanted to explain how they interact with the environment, which I did, so I will leave it at that.

[Weekend-warrior17]

It ain't nothing personal guy. Educational im sure to a few other readers out here. I appreciated it and I'm defiantly trying to argue with limited knowledge on the subject myself.
I still don't think they are the best creation out here in the great blue sea. Haha Tight lines KR. More should pitch on this.

[The Quadfather]

I must say that I did enjoy the back and forth banter on this stuff. This is a classic kind of thread that comes up during the slow period between most river closures and the lowland lakes opener, lol.

I don't have any any strong opinions as to the "Worthiness" of the Pike Minnow.
So, most of our population likes eating salmon over Pike Minnow... So therefor we condone turning all Pikes into eagle food and fertilizer? If we were living in Vietnam, Thailand or some other place, they might LOVE the Pike M.

Also, I think a lot of the reasons we sometimes have unbalanced amounts of species is due to the influence that man has put into the ecosystem. Dams on rivers, and a steady diet of persuing salmon over Pike M.
So, I'm not a biologist obviously, but with us fishing/retaining salmon constantly, and bunging up rivers with dams, their numbers are constantly taking a hit.
Does the Pike M. have a serious contendor/preditor keeping it's numbers in check...maybe not.

I think what KingRoobes is saying is just that it doesn't seem right when you hear so many people talking blatantly about killing as many of anything as they can get their hands on.
My thoughts are just, "Ya, I caught a Pike Minnow.... I'll probably not release it. Not a big dent to the species. Am I going to go online and brag up that I gutted 6 of them and helped rid the (horrible species) from the system. No, not my style.

[swb69]

I have fished the Snake River all my life and squaws are hated here. Right, wrong, or indifferent. When cat fishing you catch a squaw 8 out of 10 cast, its hard to appreciate them for anything but cut bait. The bounty, as far as I can tell, has not really helped knock down their numbers. If they were not so many of them then maybe I could see their benefit.

The whole salmon/steelhead topic is more than just predators. There are so many things that affect them its hard to tell what has the greatest affect. Everybody has their favorite punching bag as to who or what is at fault, the dams, global warming, ocean temps, over fishing, pollution, you name it. I've been in many heated debates over it and all I found out is how stubborn people are(myself included).

As for the treatment of squaws on the Snake and Columbia I say get them out of the rivers.

[racfish]

We need to find away to make them a tasty feast. Squaws are big fat fish. I've caught many and killed most. I just don't know if I want to kill one gut it and bring it home. Maybe they are good smoked .The worse thing that makes them gross is their mouth the way it looks. I say leave them for the Europeans (Russians) to catch . They eat just about everything.