Questionable fishing techniques

[hlindsay]

deleted

[mizm05]

The guy who mans the wdfw email box is great. He's cleared up many a question for me this season. And he has a sense of humor to boot. Nice guy, I believe his name is Josh. I'd have to go back through my emails and look. Probably have his name wrong, but he's a nice guy either way and always willing to clarify the regs.

[fishinChristian]

Downriggers aren't efficient enough to be illegal. They work though!

I like how tangential any discussion of the regs gets. It reflects what they seem like when you go to check something.

[ResQ]

to some people, it seems that if you do not fish with nothing more than bamboo rod and bare no barb hook you are a fishing bully. The use of bait creates a fake fish profile or profile of whatever sea creature you are trying to mimic. Therefore you are tricking the fish for your own entertainment making you a bully. Only thing I can think of lol.

[Corkie]

How interesting that there are those who dont know the value of a downrigger...i am amazed that anyone with a boat doesnt have one...i didnt read the op context...but when applicable...it provides a perfect technique to present your offering...whatever...im really glad i have two scotty elec. on my boat

[Gonefishing]

//rant mode on

I was originally going to avoid this topic for many a reasons. But to the person that "hates" downriggers what is one to do if trolling and trying to reach depths of maybe 125 - 160, all because your fish finder is showing fish in those depths? Or is the depth finder a no no in that persons book as well? Do I need to use Deep 6 Fishing Divers? Isn't that kind of the same thing as a downrigger in a way except you will have no true clue to the depth you reach unless you are watching the angle the line is at and the number of pulls and current and... anyways you get the idea.

Anyhoo

//rant mode off

[Mike Carey]

hard core light line mooching. Tengu (sp) derby style. I don't have the patience for it.

[panfisher]

OK I'll bite, voluntarily, though I think you were really intending to "floss" this response all along.
As a fellow fisherman, I respect and acknowledge your opinion, I just don't happen to agree with it.

You need to read the entire regulation to understand the law and how it is enforced.
Snagging: "Attempting to take fish with a hook and line in such a way that the fish does not voluntarily take the hook(s) in its mouth."
The key words here are attempting and voluntarily. For it to be called snagging, you have to prove intent by the fisherman and somehow read the fish's mind, which is impossible. This is why you have an additional regulation regarding where the fish is hooked. Given that some fish, like coho and steelhead, like to use the smash and grab technique at times, I'd wager that there a many fish every year the are released even though the fish intended to take the lure but foul hooked itself. Those are the breaks with the way the rules are written some you win, some you lose. Fact is, as the regulations are written, side drifting a lure or bait with a long leader is perfectly legal and so is retaining a fish that is hooked inside the mouth and in some places hooked forward of the gill plates. Last week I put 4 Whitefish in the bucket because they (voluntarily) swiped at the offering but miss'd and were hook'd above the mouth on the snout area. These were legally caught fish as this does happen when fish swipe at something with the intent to get it into the mouth thus the reason for the rule of being hook'd forward of the gill plates.

[Matt]

I will comment to a different affect. I disagree that "all there is" to downrigger fishing is putting gear down and dragging it around. For pinks, and to some extent silvers that are generally targeted in the pelagic zone this technique can be effective, but fishing for Chinook in the benthos on the wire is much different. Where to be, when to be there, judging currents, finding bait, matching the hatch, keeping speed, these are just a few considerations to be made. If you drag lead where there are no fish, no fish will go into your box, and if you fish in an area dominated by prevailing currents on a bad tide you will find the same. This is true even for pelagic dwellers, I choose my locations intentionally to intercept travelling fish. Every fine detail is going to help put fish in the boat regardless of technique, it is not as simple as a downrigger and a motor, and if it were we wouldn't see half-a-fish-a-boat dock census on good days for Chinook, and even smaller margins for Blackmouth in the winter.

Internet trolls are internet trolls, and in this case I bet they are just upset because either (A) they don't own a boat or downriggers and are jealous, or (B) they are consistently going out and getting S K U N K E D on the salt.

I mean c'mon, you could make the same argument about bobbers, right? Or any technique for that matter. All you're doing is tossing it out and waiting to see your bobber drop, then its fish on! No brainer right? Yeah, sure, go tell that to the 90%ers who go home skunked.

10% of the anglers catch 90% of the fish, and gear selection is only but a scant facet of what makes a truly superior angler.

[sickbayer]

I will comment to a different affect. I disagree that "all there is" to downrigger fishing is putting gear down and dragging it around. For pinks, and to some extent silvers that are generally targeted in the pelagic zone this technique can be effective, but fishing for Chinook in the benthos on the wire is much different. Where to be, when to be there, judging currents, finding bait, matching the hatch, keeping speed, these are just a few considerations to be made. If you drag lead where there are no fish, no fish will go into your box, and if you fish in an area dominated by prevailing currents on a bad tide you will find the same. This is true even for pelagic dwellers, I choose my locations intentionally to intercept travelling fish. Every fine detail is going to help put fish in the boat regardless of technique, it is not as simple as a downrigger and a motor, and if it were we wouldn't see half-a-fish-a-boat dock census on good days for Chinook, and even smaller margins for Blackmouth in the winter.

Internet trolls are internet trolls, and in this case I bet they are just upset because either (A) they don't own a boat or downriggers and are jealous, or (B) they are consistently going out and getting S K U N K E D on the salt.

I mean c'mon, you could make the same argument about bobbers, right? Or any technique for that matter. All you're doing is tossing it out and waiting to see your bobber drop, then its fish on! No brainer right? Yeah, sure, go tell that to the 90%ers who go home skunked.

10% of the anglers catch 90% of the fish, and gear selection is only but a scant facet of what makes a truly superior angler.

thumbs up on that response!!

[natetreat]

This is one of those things that I never could understand. Technique snobs really irritate me. That's why I will never ever call myself a fly fishermen, even though I really enjoy fly fishing. "filthy gear chuckers" "bait slingers" "bobber fishers" "nymphers" "meat eaters" "hatchery lovers" ... It's stupid. Why should any one technique be better than another. Down rigging is not a magic put fish in the boat food machine. There are lots of in's and out's to it. Even if you are dogging eggs in the river, you're not guaranteed to go home with fish. "All drift fishing is snagging" was one that was popular on here a few years back. Combat fishing isn't fishing, if you were really an angler you go stand on the beach and cast at empty water until by some chance a fish miraculously came by and bit your baitfish fly. It's a way for people to be jerks to other people. In any hobby, you'll get these guys. Windows vs. Mac, Seahawks vs. Broncos, gas vs. diesel, cruisers vs. crotch rockets. They have no place on my boat. Fishing is supposed to be fun, challenging and family friendly.

[skagit510]

not all fly fishermen are dicks. not all fly fishermen are anti hatchery. seems the gear guys all think that fly fishermen want to kill every hatchery. some techniques are harder and require more skill that's all.

[fishinChristian]

People are people in all walks. "Never appeal to a man's better nature. He may not have one." I think anyone that states legal sportfishing techniques are elite, or similar to purse seining, or somehow immoral need to follow Twain's advice about keeping silent and appearing a fool, rather than opening one's mouth and removing all doubt. They don't issue us gillnet permits or tannerite, nor would most (I would hope that would read "any") of us want them. I like everything from flyfishing to bowfishing, and most everything between. A little less tolerance and a bit more acceptance would go a long way for some.

And by the way, I like the fact that this thread has maintained polite discourse, rather than sinking to the level of some of the things I've run across (internet roadkill?) in other forums.

[natetreat]

not all fly fishermen are dicks. not all fly fishermen are anti hatchery. seems the gear guys all think that fly fishermen want to kill every hatchery. some techniques are harder and require more skill that's all.

I didn't say that they were. I was talking about the folks that are anti-social about their chosen technique, regardless of what that may be. The fly fishermen that are jerks, are some of the worst though. Take a stop over at washingtonflyfishing and start a thread about nymphing. Woah nelly! I have no tolerance for that kind of garbage, whether it's from a guy that mooches over downrigging or a skagit swinger vs. a baitslinger. Every technique takes a certain amount of skill and experience. It's fine and dandy when it's in jest, and we're debating lightheartedly, but it's another thing completely when their are guys going around grumpy because people aren't doing things the way that they want to, or make-believing that their hobby makes them a better person.

People are people in all walks. "Never appeal to a man's better nature. He may not have one."

Yessir! It's unfortunate, but in the end people are going to be disagreeable. The best advice when you run into those folks

[skagit510]

yes the content over on Washington fly fishing seems to be evolving into penis joke in bedlam, with subtle hints of elitism. used to be a nice place.

[natetreat]

I admit I can be opinionated and will have fun with some of these topics, but I'm always amazed at how far some folks take it. I like to fish for fun, for work and all around fish for fish. And I enjoy it for what it is. WFF is not a very friendly place when you're talking about the rivers. Not to talk about another forum, but yea, if you step out of line over there, you're going to get pages upon pages jumping on you.

[AJFishdude]

Very interesting thread going on here, I'll add a couple of thoughts.

#1: If what you are doing to catch fish isn't illegal, then you have no grounds for telling anyone off for using that method or technique, regardless of how you feel about it.

#2: Telling someone off for using a certain technique is only a losing battle. All you will do is make both of you angry, and I would be amazed if anyone who is told off for fishing in a certain (legal or illegal) way ever changes the method they are using just because some annoyed angler comes up to them and chews them out for it. It seems to me that people often don't change unless they decide to themselves (in which case they will typically come to their own conclusions regardless of whether or not someone got on their case) or they are forced to (WDFW enforcing policies).

I have an example for this one. Last November I was down on the Skokomish going after Chums from the bank. If you have never had the privilege of experiencing that fishery, just imagine about the craziest snag fest combat fishing you can. Despite all of that, you can still have fun without yelling at people. I would cast my drift gear into the pool and wait patiently for the ever so slight movement that typically indicated a fish had taken the offering, give it a solid hook set, and it was game on. From what I remember, most of the fish I brought in where hooked in the mouth (although I did get a few foul hooked), but I wasn't bringing in near the quantity of the guys who would cast, wait 10 seconds and then just rip a hook set as hard as they could. And to clarify, all fish went back into the river. I was there for the sport, not the meat. Now, I did not get a good estimate of the number of fish those other guys were bringing in foul vs. fair. All I knew was that I was fishing the way I felt was right, and was happy to be getting fish. I wasn't about to go and tell everyone else down the bank to stop doing what they were doing. See #2 above. I probably would have gotten sworn at and just made everyone and myself mad. If someone is doing something blatantly illegal (ie, you see a guy with a size 6/0 barbed treble with pencil lead on the shank) sure, you have grounds to tell them it is wrong if you desire. But everyone I saw there did appear to be using corkies and yarn, with whatever "method" they desired. To me, some of the methods didn't exactly look right, but there is no way that I could be the judge of what they were doing, what they felt at the end of their rods, etc. If it still really bothers you, call the WDFW and see if they can get out there and do something about it.

#3: My thoughts on snobs. First, I will just say that being courteous goes a long long way in keeping things civil at the river. Don't crowd people out, don't cast over people, etc., but especially don't ridicule someone for fishing a perfectly legal presentation just because it is different than yours. Believe it or not, there are tons of different methods for catching fish, and they all produce fish at different times in different ways. Floating bait or jigs, chucking spinners or spoons, plunking, jig twitching, swinging dry or wet flies, trolling plugs or bait, drifting corkies, yarn and bait. Whatever it is, it was developed and used today because it catches fish. Sure, you may have your favorites, but I firmly believe that we have so many methods because people eventually figured out that different methods at different times help catch more fish. I personally feel that a lot of people who yell at someone else for fishing gear that they aren't using can be traced back to the fact that the person who is doing the yelling is not having very much success. If you are hauling in fish after fish, you probably aren't going to care too much about the guy downstream, what he is using, and how much success he is having. If your method isn't working, but the method of the guy next to you is, then you have no one to blame but yourself for being angry that you aren't catching fish if you refuse to switch methods to what is producing that day. It's just like the way people ridicule combat fishing. If you don't like it for what it is, that's fine, but don't yell at people who do it. Anglers gather where the fish are, fact, and if you are too stubborn to fish there just out of principle, it's your own loss.

I'll end with one more example from history of people who didn't change their minds in the presence of facts (better techniques) and paid the price for it. Back in the early 1900's there was a race going on to see what nation could be the first to reach the South Pole. Making a long story short, two of the prime contenders were Britain and Norway. The British (led by Robert Falcon Scott), for whatever reason, had it stuck in their minds that the "purest" and therefore best way in which the pole could be reached was via a practice called man hauling. This literally meant that men were pulling sleds full of supplies on foot all the way to the pole and back. Now if any history buffs come around, please don't shoot me, I am purposefully simplifying the story. The British didn't make the entire trip just on their own via man hauling, but that method was deliberately chosen for large portions of the journey seemingly only because they deemed it was the proper way to do it. Looking at it with the best light I can, lets just say that they liked the challenge of it. Good for them. The Norwegians (led by Roald Amundsen) on the other hand relied very heavily on sled dogs to do their work. Rather than pulling the sleds themselves, they had the dogs do the hard work of getting them to the pole and back, which proved to be beneficial for numerous reasons. Again, long story short, Amundsen's five man team made it to the pole before Scott's, and all five of them made it back alive. Scott on the other hand did make it to the pole about five weeks after Amundsen, but he and the rest of his five man team all died on the way back due to hunger and cold. Historians tend to agree that a large part of why Scott's party died was due to the fact that they insisted on man hauling, which took more energy than they could spare.

So, while the British insisted that man hauling was the best way to go, just because, and essentially died for it, the Norwegians used a much smarter approach to get to the pole and back with everyone alive. The British thought that man hauling was somehow the end-all-be-all of polar exploration. The Norwegians thought it was something that should only be used as a last resort. How does this relate to fishing? All I am trying to say is, use whatever method you want, but don't complain because someone else has a better or different method, especially if their method is producing, yours is not, and you aren't willing to change.

[fishinChristian]

Wow! You ought to write a book. Compliment, not criticism! And you're right, don't let jerky behaving people rent space in your head. There's not enough room (At least in mine...)!

[AJFishdude]

Thanks! Honestly, I find that the best tactic for handling most situations is to just be thick skinned, and to also be smart enough to not put yourself into places where you know you may have a tough time dealing with something. Same thing applies to fishing. People want to whine, well, that is their choice and their loss. Just remember, if you aren't landing as many fish as the guy next to you, don't hate the player, hate the game. And if that really bothers you, then maybe you should consider taking your game up a notch or two.

[jonb]

Excellent comment ajfishdude. I couldn't agree more, very we'll put.