The great C and R debate

[fishingmachine]

So it was brought to my attention that I needed to bring my comments about this topic here to discuss. Let me start by saying I can understand both sides of the argument of C and R or keeping a bass. Im all for people keeping the 12" bass but I tend to get a little frustrated and upset seeing people kill big bass.

We will put it this way large bass in Washington state take years to develop and taking a few of them out a gene pool can really devastate a lake. I think people that don't bass fish much specifically don't realize that the 7#er they are killing is potentially as old as they are. So think about this when you are killing a fish like that with the intention of eating it. What has that bass that is known for eating pretty much everything lately and how could that be potentially bad for your health or even the taste of the fish. I know plenty of people that love eating bass but the smaller ones because they are a great white meat. But once they really get above the slot limit size of 17" they begin to taste like mud is what I have been told.

The other aspect is the destruction of lakes by keeping the larger fish that reproduce. I know plenty of people that used to catch big fish consistently in a few lakes but due to some meat hunters taking those big spawning fish out of the gene pool the outcome is smaller fish overall with way more stunted fish because nothing bigger Is eating them. There are some stunted lakes that taking a limit of 12" bass can actually help because it frees up more food for the other bass in the lake to grow to larger sizes.

In todays society with technology we have the ability to take a picture on a smart phone and basically upload it to many places in a matter of seconds. I know I get great joy in releasing big bass to fight another day and knowing that the younger generation may have the potential to catch that same fish. I have caught 4 bass over 7# this year and every single one is still swimming waiting for me next year. To prove catch and release works I will use this as an example back in 2010 I was fishing a local lake and caught a smallmouth on a bed that went 3# 8oz. next year the bed is in the same spot and the exact same fish on it from last year although this time it was a 4# 6oz fish. last year same fish same nest and it was 5# 1oz. The same fish three years in a row that grew a pound and a half. To me there is nothing better then seeing the fish in your local lake grow up into tremendous monsters.

People may bring up the argument about well I want to get it mounted. With todays technology all you need is a photo and length and girth measurements of the fish and you can have a way more realistic longer lasting mount made of that truly once in a lifetime catch.

My last few words about this rant are as follows. Before you kill that bass that is over the slot limit think about the negative effects it can have on a lake for your future trips, your kids future trips and their kids future trips. If everyone was to keep the big bass they catch in these lakes all we would be left with are the runts of the litter so to say. So ill leave all you with this. When you think about killing that big bass think of everyone and everything you are hurting or destroying in the process. Think of the negative repercussions that those actions will cause.

When you are done thinking bout that take that piggies picture and send them on their way to swim free until the next fight.

[BassDood]

I couldn't agree more.

[obryan214]

killing the biggies is what many believe to be behind smaller sizes of chinook in some rivers like the kenai.

[oneshot]

Bass are game fish.. Fun to catch and release.. Plenty of other food fish out there to catch and they are easier too.. leave the bass alone so we can keep playing with them for years to come, along with our kids as well..

Humans are real good at wiping out resources and species..

[natetreat]

Bass are delicious. Big ones too. I grew up eating bass, and I still love them. More people should eat bass, especially the "dinks" under the slot limit. There isn't enough food to make those fish get big, we need to cull them to get to the big ones.

I know, I know, I'm going to get a ton of hate mail for saying this. But bass are delicious and more people should eat them.

[Mike Carey]

Oh man, here it comes. Keep it civil pleazeeee.

[natetreat]

Oh man, here it comes. Keep it civil pleazeeee.

Sorry.

[fishingmachine]

Nate what you said is true about eating the ones under the slot limit. It leaves more food for the other fish and the bass are able to grow to a bigger size. You being a salmon and steelhead guide ill ask you a question. While I know it is against the regs but just playing devils advocate what if everyone bonked the big native steelhead in rivers what effect do you think it would have on number of native steelhead as well the avg size. Both would decrease tremendously. The difference is we don't have hatcheries breeding bass to make up for the ones that people are killing. Plus what most people don't realize is that a 7-10# bass in our state could be anywhere from 10-20 years old. Keeping it civil I completely agree with your point about eating bass below the slot limit size but the big ones need to be left in the lake to replenish the gene pool.

[Amx]

Bottom line is, 'the fish and wildlife dept. doesn't stock or even hardly manage Bass, therefore WE have to be sure that the Bass get the best chance to survive as an individual, and as a specie.'

We ALL like to catch big fish regardless of the specie, keep the biggest and then the 'next biggest thru the years WILL be smaller'. That has also happened in the size of the trophy bucks, deer, elk, moose, bear, all those type big game animals.

And yes, the large fish don't taste as good as the smaller fish, based on that alone why would anyone eat a big Bass?

Also I already suspended a new member for name calling in the comments, and he was also SO WRONG!! So keep it civil here.

[raptorschild]

Nate,

Why should "others eat more bass"? Are you just being inflamatory or do you actually have a reason? I agree that people should eat plenty of bass where populations are extreme and size is small...(stunted). That is the definition of Selective Harvest, and should be practiced on all our fisheries in my opinion. It's common sense. Just like anything, moderation is the key. Keeping everything you catch is dumb. Releasing everything you catch is equally dumb in many fisheries.

Nate, I've caught a lot of big bass that have noticeable marks where they have been caught before. I can just about guarantee that some kids day has been made because I let that big bass go. I know for a fact, again, by looking at the hook marks in the mouth that my day has been made many times by people who released a good fish for me to catch.

To me, bass fishing is a microcosm of society. You've got people who just TAKE TAKE TAKE...and then you've got people who take a little, and give a little. If I gain enjoyment by catching something that someone else put back, then doesn't that entitle me to give back as well, and "pay it forward"? If not, then I am by definition a "Taker", and I'm not interested in being labled a "taker."

Our society is littered with Takers, and its one of the biggest problems today. I hope you aren't one of these salmon/steelhead guys who haven't figured out that Salmon, Steelhead and bass can and have co-existed for centuries.

[natetreat]

Nate what you said is true about eating the ones under the slot limit. It leaves more food for the other fish and the bass are able to grow to a bigger size. You being a salmon and steelhead guide ill ask you a question. While I know it is against the regs but just playing devils advocate what if everyone bonked the big native steelhead in rivers what effect do you think it would have on number of native steelhead as well the avg size. Both would decrease tremendously. The difference is we don't have hatcheries breeding bass to make up for the ones that people are killing. Plus what most people don't realize is that a 7-10# bass in our state could be anywhere from 10-20 years old. Keeping it civil I completely agree with your point about eating bass below the slot limit size but the big ones need to be left in the lake to replenish the gene pool.

While it may seem like it would make a good comparison, it's comparing apples to oranges. I would love for guys to be able to keep and kill giant native steelhead. That would mean that our runs are healthy, not threatened and not over harvested.

If people take all of the big fish from the gene pool then we end up with hatchery brats like what we're stuck with for clipped fish. That's true.

But that's not the case with largemouth. 1. They're not native, they're an invasive species. A different perspective is needed when managing the species. 2. They're overpopulated. They need to be culled. Especially these smaller lakes around the Seattle area. Haller, Serene etc. There is not enough food to support the numbers of fish that are in there. Whether it is the small fish that are taken or the larger fish, fish need to be taken to maintain a trophy fishery.

In lakes like Lake Washington, there is abundant food, they're eating perch, sticklebacks and sockeye and cutthroat. When they get big they eat baby ducks. If you want to question my ethics, look back on my Lake Washington report from a few years back. I caught what was arguably a state record bass from Lake Washington, and I let it go. 17" is a baby bass to me. I'll eat it.

Bass are not struggling from a depletion in numbers. They are numerous, and the population is growing. Even lakes that were never stocked by bucket biologists are thriving bass lakes. Some of my favorite bass haunts are little beaver ponds that have put out large fish, year after year, while we still harvest them.

It may be true that heavily pressured lakes that have bass should be managed for catch and keep, there will always be small fish that grow into big fish. The larger fish are at the end of their lifespan and are not as prolific spawners, that's why we have the slot limit. If you want more big bass, it's not about not keeping the trophies, it's about keeping your limit of the little guys. In the fisheries that I grew up with down south, we all catch and killed and ate the bass. And we kept catching big fish. We didn't catch ten dinks, we caught three or four big fish each trip.

Most importantly, bass are delicious! If you bleed them, and skin them, and get rid of the dark meat along the lateral line, they fry up and are super tasty!

I really get irritated when folks feel the need to come up to me and harass me on the water for keeping a legal fish. Yelling, swearing up to the point of physical confrontation. One time I got chased around by a bass boat while fishing from my inflatable because I had a 20 incher on a stringer. When so many catch and release guys are complete dicks about it, I'm going to completely disregard their comments. That's how I am. I'll be stubborn and contrary, because I'm not going to be lumped in with the jerks.

If you really want trophy fish, start keeping your limit of 12 inch fish, not jumping on the bandwagon of disrespecting law abiding citizens.

It's like the native steelhead debate. Personally, I discourage killing your one native fish a year. At the same time, I'm not going to be disrespectful and shout down a guy that legally harvests a fish. Even so, the steelhead debate is about a fish that is actually threatened and becoming an endangered species. Largemouth will always be in the water, they are prolific, persistent, hardy and numerous. There will always be larger lakes that can support those monster fish, and there will be small ponds that are perfect for the table angler. But the science actually supports harvest of the fish, even the big ones, rather than leaving them in the lake to over compete for food and keep the entire population stunted with the big fish at 3 or 4 pounds rather than 7 or 8. There are many fish that are the same age as a fish approaching 10 pounds that are stunted because of over population. That's why we have giant populations of tiny bluegills and pumpkin seeds here on the west side. They aren't targeted enough. Even though they are super tasty.

[natetreat]

Nate,

Why should "others eat more bass"? Are you just being inflamatory or do you actually have a reason? I agree that people should eat plenty of bass where populations are extreme and size is small...(stunted). That is the definition of Selective Harvest, and should be practiced on all our fisheries in my opinion. It's common sense. Just like anything, moderation is the key. Keeping everything you catch is dumb. Releasing everything you catch is equally dumb in many fisheries.

Nate, I've caught a lot of big bass that have noticeable marks where they have been caught before. I can just about guarantee that some kids day has been made because I let that big bass go. I know for a fact, again, by looking at the hook marks in the mouth that my day has been made many times by people who released a good fish for me to catch.

To me, bass fishing is a microcosm of society. You've got people who just TAKE TAKE TAKE...and then you've got people who take a little, and give a little. If I gain enjoyment by catching something that someone else put back, then doesn't that entitle me to give back as well, and "pay it forward"? If not, then I am by definition a "Taker", and I'm not interested in being labled a "taker."

Our society is littered with Takers, and its one of the biggest problems today. I hope you aren't one of these salmon/steelhead guys who haven't figured out that Salmon, Steelhead and bass can and have co-existed for centuries.

How about a compromise? Manage certain lakes for largemouth. Put a top size limit at 14" put a 5 fish limit at under 14. And all of the catch a release advocates keep their dinks and if they don't want to eat them, give them away to folks who do. Urban lakes would be a good candidate for these rules. Medium sized lakes that have a nice ecosystem with enough food to support a decent sized population of large fish. And then we'll have other lakes that we keep at the same slot limit that are for the catch and keep guys. A good idea for a trophy fishery is Lake Cassidy, roesiger in Snohomish county. At some point bass will become a nuisance and eat too many kokanee and trout as well. I'm not being inflammatory, I'm being reasonable. Every spring I go out and catch a fair number of bass to eat, because I think they are delicious, and they're a novelty, we eat so much salmon and steelhead at my house.

[fishingmachine]

Amx makes some great points about how wdfw values bass as a species. We not only have to battle with people killing fish but wfdw trying to eradicate the species. They seem to mismanage about everything possible but that's another discussion in itself.

As for nate your points are valid but to an extent. I agree with the harvesting of smaller bass but on many small lakes I don't think you realize how taking one or two big fish out can really throw off a whole lake. Lake desire from what ive been told by many used to be an absolutely great big lm bass fishery until over a few years meat hunters kept a good number of bass over 17" and now a fish that big in that lake is an absolute rarity. It is the long lasting effects like that I am trying to prevent. I have fish many stunted bass lakes but most the lakes people think are stunted have true trophies in em they just aren't targeting them. Taking small bass out of the equation helps the other fish in the slot limit as well as the oversized get to great size. Basically all the big female bass you catch that have the best genes and produce the best offspring are well over the 17" mark. By taking those fish out of the lake you are undoubtedly hurting the lake.

My main point is though it is legal to keep 17" plus bass to release those for others to enjoy the same fight you experienced and be able to make those great memories as raptors child stated while keeping the fish in the gene pool. Selective harvesting can be good but too much can severly hurt a lake as well. I will agree with you nate on keeping the smaller fish but I cant agree with taking the biggest spawning females out of a lake.

[fishingmachine]

Nate after reading one of your lake wa reports I stumbled upon this exact wording from your report. "I called my brother on the way home to tell him and he's like "Why didn't you keep it?!?!?!" 1. Because bass don't taste good like trout, so I'm not going to kill the beautiful creature to not eat it, 2. I know how to catch him again, and 3. all of you who read this report can go out and catch him again, the biggest bass I've ever seen in real life. I take no pleasure in killing fish that I'm not going to eat."

So if you released that big bass for those reasons why would you kill one now unless im misunderstanding you and you don't kill 17"+ bass just the small ones?

[natetreat]

Amx makes some great points about how wdfw values bass as a species. We not only have to battle with people killing fish but wfdw trying to eradicate the species. They seem to mismanage about everything possible but that's another discussion in itself.

As for nate your points are valid but to an extent. I agree with the harvesting of smaller bass but on many small lakes I don't think you realize how taking one or two big fish out can really throw off a whole lake. Lake desire from what ive been told by many used to be an absolutely great big lm bass fishery until over a few years meat hunters kept a good number of bass over 17" and now a fish that big in that lake is an absolute rarity. It is the long lasting effects like that I am trying to prevent. I have fish many stunted bass lakes but most the lakes people think are stunted have true trophies in em they just aren't targeting them. Taking small bass out of the equation helps the other fish in the slot limit as well as the oversized get to great size. Basically all the big female bass you catch that have the best genes and produce the best offspring are well over the 17" mark. By taking those fish out of the lake you are undoubtedly hurting the lake.

My main point is though it is legal to keep 17" plus bass to release those for others to enjoy the same fight you experienced and be able to make those great memories as raptors child stated while keeping the fish in the gene pool. Selective harvesting can be good but too much can severly hurt a lake as well. I will agree with you nate on keeping the smaller fish but I cant agree with taking the biggest spawning females out of a lake.

Like I said, there are lakes that are well suited to trophy fisheries, and there are lakes that are just too small and don't have enough food to keep a significant number of fish at that large size. Washington isn't a good environment for largemouth to begin with on the west side. So you need to pick your battles. These smaller lakes sometimes can only support maybe five or ten big fish. At the same time, they're managed as a hatchery trout fishery, which in Washington does, and should, take precedence over an invasive species. Many of our lowland lakes used to be great habitats for wild cutthroat and rainbows, because at o ne time or another they connected to the ocean.

WDFW does listen to anglers. That's how we got the slot limit! Get your bass clubs together with a reasonable proposal with science behind it to target lakes that can support a significant population of big fish, and manage it for a trophy fishery. You're never going to be able to get all of the lakes that way, especially by badgering and harassing guys that do keep fish. All you're going to do by starting a debate in the comment section of any given report is discourage guys from posting reports in the first place. I'm on your side! I love catching big fish. I would love to have a trophy fishery, where I could catch and release the big guys. Partly I'm playing devil's advocate because a bunch of guys saying "hear, hear!" to C&R does absolutely nothing to change anything. And I'm also giving you a great alternative way to get what you want.

If you make a serious proposal to WDFW during the next season's rule making process, I'll get behind you 100%. There are a lot of medium to large lakes that would be excellent candidates for C&R lakes. Roesiger, Cassidy, American, Riffe, Swofford, Mason, Sammamish, Goodwin etc etc. But not all of them. But I hate to hear folks complain about the regs, WDFW when they don't do anything about it. Or they do things counter-intuitive the accomplishing their goals, like bashing folks who don't agree with them.

The fact is that Washington's first priority is going to be salmon, steelhead and trout. If you'd like to get big bass, you're going to have to put in the effort. Look at the lakes that have been selected for big crappie management. That's a new thing. At the very least, start keeping some dinks. Do your part before you start lecturing and bashing others.

[natetreat]

Nate after reading one of your lake wa reports I stumbled upon this exact wording from your report. "I called my brother on the way home to tell him and he's like "Why didn't you keep it?!?!?!" 1. Because bass don't taste good like trout, so I'm not going to kill the beautiful creature to not eat it, 2. I know how to catch him again, and 3. all of you who read this report can go out and catch him again, the biggest bass I've ever seen in real life. I take no pleasure in killing fish that I'm not going to eat."

So if you released that big bass for those reasons why would you kill one now unless im misunderstanding you and you don't kill 17"+ bass just the small ones?

Because I've gotten older and I don't care if I get hate mail anymore. And I do release the monsters. When I first joined the site, I wanted to get along with everybody. Now I know that that's not going to happen, I can't please everyone, so I'm honest and just don't read the hate. A 17" fish isn't a monster. Anything over 5 or 6 pounds goes back in the lake.

[fishingmachine]

first and foremost it was never my intention to bash someone in a comment section and shouldn't be seen that way. I tried to talk about c and r and that is why I started this thread im not in it for bashing others or anything like that just to educate people on why catching and releasing the bigger fish is so important.
Nate you make some great points but I am in a bass club and for the most part behind the scenes we get shafted by wdfw quite a bit with permit fees and all that. Our permit fees have increased a tremendous amount this past year. I remember you talking about the guide stamp thing and how that would take more money from your pocket. Well its doing the same to the bass clubs that now are having to find ways to bring in more money while keeping it accessible budget wise to the general population. A lot of us bass guys are responsible for their not being a lead ban on lakes that wdfw had proposed a few years prior as well as some other things.

[natetreat]

Nate after reading one of your lake wa reports I stumbled upon this exact wording from your report. "I called my brother on the way home to tell him and he's like "Why didn't you keep it?!?!?!" 1. Because bass don't taste good like trout, so I'm not going to kill the beautiful creature to not eat it, 2. I know how to catch him again, and 3. all of you who read this report can go out and catch him again, the biggest bass I've ever seen in real life. I take no pleasure in killing fish that I'm not going to eat."

So if you released that big bass for those reasons why would you kill one now unless im misunderstanding you and you don't kill 17"+ bass just the small ones?

And a lot of the time, I'll debate from positions that I don't necessarily agree with. At least not all the way. You wanted a debate, and I'm giving it to you. You're not going to "win" by poisoning the well, attacking my credibility. In university, I was the president of the debate team. I'm not going to miss the opportunity to have a healthy debate. Nothing gets settled if there's not someone from the other side. I mean, who else is going to come out and argue for the unpopular opinion? This site isn't as bad as others, but still, you'll get badgered and harassed with angry PM's if you don't join in on the consensus. A "debate" isn't a debate if we're all in agreement. I don't mind getting shunned by the close minded, everyone knows that I can get people on fish, I'm a great guy to fish with, and the business I lose by participating in this forum only keeps the guys that I'd rather not fish with anyways away. I've got a great boat, high quality gear, and an education and ambition to keep ALL of our fisheries top notch. And nothing changes without healthy debate and education, an education that drives folks to take action. WDFW is one of the most accessible departments in the state, every year angler groups like the Wild Steelhead Coalition get better rules pushed through to protect our fish. The musky clubs get lakes stocked, and other groups get great trophy trout fisheries going by volunteering. We have a great program down in Mason county that gets nice big trout raised and released into Stump Lake and the lakes in that area. Fact is not all lakes can support a reasonable population of big bass. So we should focus on ways to get big bass fisheries in the ones that can.

[ADT]

Fact is , if myself and others kept one big bass every time we went out fishing. There would not be very many big bass left for the rest of you. I doubt there is a single fish in the state over 17" that hasn't been caught and released at least once. If we don't release those fish you wouldn't even see a big fish much less catch it. Bass fishing in Washington is already fairly poor. WDFW needs to remove the slot and change it to no fish over 14" can be retained at all unless in a registered competition.

[natetreat]

first and foremost it was never my intention to bash someone in a comment section and shouldn't be seen that way. I tried to talk about c and r and that is why I started this thread im not in it for bashing others or anything like that just to educate people on why catching and releasing the bigger fish is so important.
Nate you make some great points but I am in a bass club and for the most part behind the scenes we get shafted by wdfw quite a bit with permit fees and all that. Our permit fees have increased a tremendous amount this past year. I remember you talking about the guide stamp thing and how that would take more money from your pocket. Well its doing the same to the bass clubs that now are having to find ways to bring in more money while keeping it accessible budget wise to the general population. A lot of us bass guys are responsible for their not being a lead ban on lakes that wdfw had proposed a few years prior as well as some other things.

Sure, bureaucracy has always been frustrating, and always will. If funding is the issue, get the other bass clubs to work with you. What kinds of permits are you talking about? Get something together, and I'll help out. I'll donate some of my time to raising money.