Ol' Girl gets a new Ol' Girl

[Toni]

Toni the silver hood vent cover got clipped by forum photo settings, try attaching the photo instead of using the image option if your photos are not showing full size. I looked at the photo via photobucket image link and could see what you were talking about.

Fixed

[MotoBoat]

The holes in the stringers were not made to drain water. They are toward the top of the stringer. They were put in to provide air. The stringers only had resin 3/4 of the way up and the floor was not attached to them. This is the way the boat was designed. I was told it was not until 1975 that they suppose to be closed cells and watertight.

Steve would like to take it out and put it back closed up and water tight. That little silver hooded thing at the front of the bow is a vent and it has about 3 inch wide tubing that goes down the inside of the bow seat. The holes in the stringer are about the same width.

Has the option of repairing to today's boat building safety standards been discussed? If current standards indicates removal of the current air circulation system, and adding or deleting stringer holes for water drainage. Then, that would be the path of logic.......IMHO.

[Toni]

Yes that was what Steve was wanting to do but have to get money to get stuff. This is what it looked like before it was cleaned.

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[MotoBoat]

Yes that was what Steve was wanting to do but have to get money to get stuff. This is what it looked like before it was cleaned.

yuck.jpg

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Do new boats use spray in foam, solid cut to fit Styrofoam sheets, or something altogether different?

[Toni]

I don't know what new boats use but for restoring from what I have read use stuff like this http://www.shopmaninc.com/foam.html

[Bodofish]

Most use spray foam, not very good for the application as it will absorb water. Cut blocks in bags are better and better yet ballons in the spaces if you feel the need. I prefer none but the choice is yours.

[G-Man]

Keep in mind that if you put a bunch flotation in the bottom of your boat, the boat will want to float upside down if it ever fills with water. To keep it right side up when full of water, put some or all of the flotation above deck, like under the gunwales. My boat has solid pieces of styrofoam located throughout the hull.

[Toni]

Most use spray foam, not very good for the application as it will absorb water. Cut blocks in bags are better and better yet ballons in the spaces if you feel the need. I prefer none but the choice is yours.

That stuff is closed cell and doesn't absorb water. It is up to coast guard standards.

[Toni]

Keep in mind that if you put a bunch flotation in the bottom of your boat, the boat will want to float upside down if it ever fills with water. To keep it right side up when full of water, put some or all of the flotation above deck, like under the gunwales. My boat has solid pieces of styrofoam located throughout the hull.

It already has that. Under gunwales and splashwell and front seats.

[Bodofish]

Most use spray foam, not very good for the application as it will absorb water. Cut blocks in bags are better and better yet ballons in the spaces if you feel the need. I prefer none but the choice is yours.

That stuff is closed cell and doesn't absorb water. It is up to coast guard standards.

So they say, I've seen too much of it full of water to believe them. Besides the fact it's being poured makes it impossible to be closed cell. Closed cell foam is made under special conditions in a factory mold.....

[MotoBoat]

Keep in mind that if you put a bunch flotation in the bottom of your boat, the boat will want to float upside down if it ever fills with water. To keep it right side up when full of water, put some or all of the flotation above deck, like under the gunwales. My boat has solid pieces of styrofoam located throughout the hull.

G, under the floor of your boat too?

To think floatation under the floor, will cause the boat to float upside down. When filled with water, is crazy to consider. It makes perfect sense though.

How do you suppose Lund placed foam in a 1975 17ft Fish and Ski model? I know there is Styrofoam blocks under the gunwale on each side. But have no idea if the same exists under the floor.

[G-Man]

As long as the flotation is well distributed, it shouldn't be an issue. One would hope that a boat manufacturer tests the floatation of each boat they make and knows what they need and where to install it to get the desired effect. I believe that there are federal regulations regarding floatation requirements for recreational boats, I'm just not familliar with the details surrounding them.

[Bodofish]

Off the top of my head, manufactures selling through dealers have to put floatation in boats under 20' or 19'. The wording of the law is very strange and I'm not sure why. A guy building one offs does not have to comply and the requirment is only for boat sold by dealers. There is no law that says boats must have floatation, just boats sold by a dealer. For instance, my Custom Weld is exempt from the rule and has no foam to soak up water. A similar sized boat from Lund would have to be foamed. Because of the requirement many of the "light" boat mfgs will use the foam as an engineering component or to add strength to the structure by welding or adhearing it together. So once the boat leaves the showroom, it is not required to contain foatation.

Make no mistake, the foam mentioned is not "Closed Cell Foam" and will redily soak up water given half a chance. I've helped remove many, many cubic feet of it restoring a few boats. Leave the plug out, take the boat out in the rain and it will soak up a lot of water. A friend lost 600# restoring an 18' Alumaweld after removing the soaked foam from under the floors. The wording is intended to make you feel warm and fuzzy about the product. It's all in the first paragraph. The wording should put them in good standing with the Used Car Dealers Assn. "This two-part liquid, expanding rigid urethane foam is a closed cell, pourable foam, which will resist the absorption of water.", "is a closed cell" is a far cry from being "closed cell" foam. It only means that it forms a skin sorts when expanding and "will resist" is about as far from will not.

If I were to put floatation back in under the floors or any other chambers, it would be air bladders made to size or use the orange buoy/bumpers, some dry bags purchased on sale, anything that won't hold water. I would even just glass in the chambers and make an air space. The key is to be able to remove it easily if the boat gets filled with water for any reason. It only takes a little bit of water in the bottom. BTW, water is a pound a pint. Pour one in the bottom and get a good idea of how many the boat can hold.

[blurock]

Most use spray foam, not very good for the application as it will absorb water. Cut blocks in bags are better and better yet ballons in the spaces if you feel the need. I prefer none but the choice is yours.

That stuff is closed cell and doesn't absorb water. It is up to coast guard standards.

So they say, I've seen too much of it full of water to believe them. Besides the fact it's being poured makes it impossible to be closed cell. Closed cell foam is made under special conditions in a factory mold.....

The spray in foam is by no means closed cell and water tight. You can pull some out of the floor of the Willie, and ring out a few cups of water... It's sort of like biting into an apple when you stick the end of a screw driver in it LOL! There are LOTS of air bubbles/voids/and spaces in that foam that the water saturates into. The foam itself may not expand with water, but it sure does hold it.

[Toni]

There are LOTS of air bubbles/voids/and spaces in that foam that the water saturates into. The foam itself may not expand with water, but it sure does hold it.

The foam is closed cell but it is what you wrote above. Water gets into the space and that is where it sits.

[Bodofish]

As I said before, that foam is not closed cell. They claim It makes a closed cell. Huge difference. If you would like me to go into the details, chemical properties and manufacturing process I can and everyone will be extremely board. "Closed Closed Foam" is not made with an open pour, never has been never will be.

[MotoBoat]

As I said before, that foam is not closed cell. They claim It makes a closed cell. Huge difference. If you would like me to go into the details, chemical properties and manufacturing process I can and everyone will be extremely board. "Closed Closed Foam" is not made with an open pour, never has been never will be.

Bodo, I've got all day. Go to town. I will read your "Not closed, closed cell foam" submission.

[Bodofish]

As I said before, that foam is not closed cell. They claim It makes a closed cell. Huge difference. If you would like me to go into the details, chemical properties and manufacturing process I can and everyone will be extremely board. "Closed Closed Foam" is not made with an open pour, never has been never will be.

Bodo, I've got all day. Go to town. I will read your "Not closed, closed cell foam" submission.

OK so I’m not typing all day for anyone but, without going too far I will say that it’s been a few years since I’ve actively been in the marine manufacturing and construction industry. The terminology may have changed some over time as language does. I will say there is no such thing as any foam that will not absorb water over time. It’s the nature of the beast, it has holes throughout and they can hold water. When discussing project design parameters as they relate to foams for padding, safety, floatation, vibration dampening, structural augmentation and insulation, we would consider these types of foams to be closed cell, they are manufactured in a mold as opposed to open pour, ( Some are sliced after they are molded to make sheets.) they have a very high cell tenacity (tough and flexible) and are not cross linked, they are extremely resistant to absorbing water. This is not an inclusive list and yes I did cheat by copying some of it:

Polyethylene: Polyethylene foam is a strong, resilient closed-cell foam. Ideally suited as the material or part of a material required in products requiring a shock absorbing, vibration dampening, insulation, barrier or buoyancy component, and as a material for cushioning products in packaging applications. Polyethylene foam's excellent buoyancy allows it to be used in flotation equipment, and other nautical products.

Polyethylene Roll: Chemically cross-linked foam that offers aesthetic appeal as well as an outstanding range of performance characteristics. Its smooth surface, excellent consistency, gauge control, superior physical and chemical properties, low water absorption and vapor transmission make polyethylene roll stock a versatile, dependable solution for a host of demanding applications.

Cross Linked Polyethylene (XLPE): Extremely fine-celled, chemically cross-linked foam that is ideal for applications which require a thicker foam. It combines a smooth, aesthetic feel with superior physical and chemical properties. Cross Linked Polyethylene foam is the ideal solution for a diverse array of applications where thicker sections of closed cell foam are required.

Polystyrene (AKA EPS): A lightweight foam, EPS is very popular for countless craft projects, and its easy to work with. Think cheap beer cooler. EPS’s unique closed-cell structure allows almost total resistance from moisture & water vapor and will not rot or attract fungi or mildew. Also, EPS has a superior R-value, so it will insulate and keep heat or cool inside a particular room.

Neoprene : Flexible and durable sponge rubber that provides good thermal & moisture insulation and form fitting which is able to resist ozone, sunlight, oxidation, many petroleum derivatives and chemicals. Neoprene foam can also resist breakdown by water, and can become temporarily stable because water & air can become isolated in its unique molecular structure. Some of the many uses of neoprene include sports gloves, waders, wet suits, insulated can holders, knee & elbow pads, and expansion joint filers in masonry & concrete, and filler support sealant in traffic bearing joints.

Gym rubber (PVCNB): is durable and flexible closed-cell foam with a medium feel. Its high density allows it to be used for exercise matting, kneeling cushions, and camping pads while remaining soft to the touch for comfort. It can be used to dampen vibrations and noise in automotive and industrial capacities as well. This foam has a high R-Value, allowing it to be used as insulation while taking up less space because of its density. It is easy to cut, moisture resistant and practical for outdoor and marine applications.
It's technical name is Polyvinyl Chloride Nitrile Butadiene Rubber.

I guess my main problem with poured urethane foams is they’re cell structure, it’s ridged. So I guess they could technically call this closed cell when it is freshly poured or sprayed, before the boat is actually used. Sprayed or poured urethane foam is great in a static structure but when it has a chance to move the cells can become compromised. When they become compromised they will allow water in. Now in a big boat, say one over 40 or 50 feet it’s not such a big deal as the foam is normally sprayed, it doesn’t sit in the bilge or where water can collect and most boats of that size are sealed at the deck so they don’t allow water in to begin with. Their scale makes the product suitable. Small boats, especially open design boats do not have a sealed deck or cabin. A little rain and in it goes, right to the bilge and the foam(s) core. We all know that small craft will flex, it’s a given, so with a poured foam its life expectance is reduced every time the boat flexes. The poured foam creates a skin that is supposed to hold out the water but as the boat flexes and moves it gets worn through and cracked, making a void, allowing water in. Now for another example of urethane foam, one where it’s in it’s element, think Florist and the green foam they use in flower arrangements. It’s exactly the same foam it’s just been cut from a big block. They use it because it so good at holding water. As for boat manufactures, I will note that some will pour the foam inside of a bag or bladder to make it more durable and less susceptible to water. I will also add its Coast Guard approved, not because of its great flotation, it’s because it’s resistant to solvents and almost inflammable, the approval only means it’s safe to use on a boat, nothing more. I also believe the CG flotation rule only holds true till the boat is taken off the lot. If you remove the foam you do not have to replace it. A friend took over 600 pounds of water logged urethane foam out of his Alumaweld and that was in dry Idaho, not wet Western Washington. After the restoration, it passed it’s CG examination with flying colors.

The closed cell foam most folks come in contact with would be a sleeping pad for camping or yoga pad, some life jackets and or ski vests, wet suits, padding on kneeboards, a float coat is another one. It’s pretty cool stuff because most types are soft and flexible (except EPS) and can be heat/pressure molded into many, many different items. You can make it even tougher by dipping or coating, think, key fob for your boat or kneeling board for the garden.

The last thing I will say is pour or spray the stuff anywhere it makes anyone happy, it’s only money and weight. For the intended purpose of this thread, in my opinion, it’s far from the best product, especially where none is the best product for solution.

[MotoBoat]

So all that typing time does not go unrewarded. Bodo, I am sending you something you will enjoy. Check you "PM" inbox.

[Toni]

Did some work on the boat today. Steve worked on the floor and I did a little on the trailer. The stringers had more rot than at first supposed. I have some video but I can't figure out how to get it of my phone.

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