Baker Lake Harsh Wardens

[RiverChromeGS]

Bugmasta: Don't know if "steeleywhopper" has law enforcement associations or not, but I do: 20+ years as Alaska Fish and Wildlife Trooper. I DO know that you've only got one side of the story: "fishenfreak's." What he says may be absolutely true...but I can tell you that in those 20 yrs of law enforcement I can count on one hand the number of guys who got tickets, stood tall, and said "Yep, I was wrong," without some excuse or comment about how we should be spending our time on somebody else.

The laws may not be easily understood, or entirely fairly enforced, but in spite of all the talk of us all being law abiding fishermen, there's only one group of guys who cared enough to take the job, get the training, and put the time in on the front lines to protect the resource...the wardens.

Yeah, I know, Bugmasta, "I'm not gonna make lots of friends."

i support fish and game enforcement 100% but i do not agree with the things some of our enforcement waste's their time and OUR money on now days, spending hours to follow and ticket a kid for "boat fishing" because i held the rod for longer than my buddy? on baker lake hatchery sockeye? then making up a rule on the water about "majority fighting means its your fish"... come on.. its not even in the rule book.. and then being so hesitant to give me a 540$ ticket when i have a good record and never gotten a citation before..

yes i went to the office to schedule a day to fight the ticket and they told me it was for $540..

[steeleywhopper]

I'm just a regular Joe who gets tired of people not owning up for their actions. You didnt want to tag out, handed your buddy the rod and got a ticket. So be it. I am new to the site and sorry for the harsh first post, but darn it, I couldn't sit back and not comment. The post stuck in my craw and I started typing. No offense to you fishenfreak, just wish more people would own up to their mistakes.

[bigskyx]

Current regs pamhlet, pg 7, YOUTH FISHING:

WDFW strongly supports and promotes youth fishing. Everyone 15 years of age and older must have a license. Children 14 years of age and under do not require a license, but they must actively participate and be able to demonstrate the ability to handle the gear by themselves. They must follow all the rules and restrictions for that particular species and/or body of water, and are allowed the same daily limit as an adult. Adults may assist and are not required to have a license if they will not be fishing/harvesting themselves, but children must be present and take part in the entire process.

Pay close attention to the highlighted text, this will be interpreted by a warden so be careful with how much assistance you or your wife provide.

In case you don't know, under HARVEST AND POSSESSION RULES, pg 12, 2012 - 2013 Rules Pamphlet, in the YOU MAY NOT sections:

Harvest any part of another person’s daily limit, except for persons who possess a Designated Harvester Card.

Continue to fish for salmon after the adult portion of the daily limit has been retained.

If each of your 3 kids catch and retain one salmon apiece at Baker you are through for the day. YOU may not also catch and retain a limit!

Compare the rule in green to the statement in blue. They don't jive?
$540. bucks! that's insane. I hope you beat it FF!!

[MotoBoat]

I did not know "fishing for the boat" was okay in Salt water but not in a Lake. Thought it was not okay in either case, for no other reason than a gut feeling. Look, I like to reel in fish. Especially good fighting ones like Baker Lake Sockeye. But in your shoes freak, as you have described the infraction. Add to that as much fishing as you do. There must have been a feeling inside that said at the time you were reeling in your 3rd fish, and your buddy his 1st. If there was a warden watching, I would be busted right now.

In hindsight, if giving the fish to your buddy, and now that a ticket was issued. If and when that situation repeats itself. Do you say, "screw it" I am taking my chances and reeling in that fish" or "I aint touching that rod, it stays in the rod holder until my buddy finishes with the fish, then he can real in the second !" With the boat in gear, a well hooked fish swimming behind a pole that is in the holder has a descent shot at being landed.

Heck, there was one time a buddy and I could see the Salmon I had on, swimming with the dodger not 20 feet form us. Only that fish did not get any closer to the net because it was a slack lined fish on his rod, with barbless hooks!. Not the fish I was fighting. The tension of the flasher dragging through the water is what kept the fish hooked.

People are strange critters. Under normal circumstances they tell only there side of the story and a skewed one at that. The side that benefits them the most, and validates there actions. It is called, one side. First time around the story went "WDFW followed me around all day!. Then it was 2 hours. Big difference! Then your pissed they followed "me" around. Probably giving you a criminal feeling.

Maybe they followed you around because something looked suspicious. Or some "other" fishermen on the lake thought you had so much action, surely you were over your limit and turned you into enforcement. if that was the case, and it took hours for you to catch your fish, then it would take hours of watching to make a case against that type of infraction.

What is the chance WDFW latched onto you for hours "just because?"

I am not agreeing with the ticket you got. But there is "ALWAYS" two sides to the story. What is the officers? Should be written on the ticket or in a case report.

Yes, the ticket sucks. Isn't a surprise though cause, you knew enough to avoid pulling one rod after one of you limited. By reeling in your limit, but transferring that fish to another punch card. But how many times did this occur in the past before the odds finally caught up to you? In the eyes of the law, how do they know your not catching 6 fish. Placing 3 on your punch card and 3 on your buddies. Then keeping all 6, not giving your buddy any of them?

Law enforcement sees all kinds of violations, there is no way for them to predict the only violation was going to be the one committed and ticketed, any more than you knew who was watching! That is just how things ended up, after the investigation ended!

One a more somber note. I would guess "boat fishing" occurs on the water, a very high percentage of the time.

[hewesfisher]

Current regs pamhlet, pg 7, YOUTH FISHING:

WDFW strongly supports and promotes youth fishing. Everyone 15 years of age and older must have a license. Children 14 years of age and under do not require a license, but they must actively participate and be able to demonstrate the ability to handle the gear by themselves. They must follow all the rules and restrictions for that particular species and/or body of water, and are allowed the same daily limit as an adult. Adults may assist and are not required to have a license if they will not be fishing/harvesting themselves, but children must be present and take part in the entire process.

Pay close attention to the highlighted text, this will be interpreted by a warden so be careful with how much assistance you or your wife provide.

In case you don't know, under HARVEST AND POSSESSION RULES, pg 12, 2012 - 2013 Rules Pamphlet, in the YOU MAY NOT sections:

Harvest any part of another person’s daily limit, except for persons who possess a Designated Harvester Card.

Continue to fish for salmon after the adult portion of the daily limit has been retained.

If each of your 3 kids catch and retain one salmon apiece at Baker you are through for the day. YOU may not also catch and retain a limit!

Compare the rule in green to the statement in blue. They don't jive?
$540. bucks! that's insane. I hope you beat it FF!!

Yep, you, Tom D, and Bodo are right. I mis-applied that portion regarding retention and misunderstood the meaning of "adult" in that sentence. Thanks for clarifying.

In regard to a "boat limit" in fresh water, the answer is on pg 12 in the HARVEST AND POSSESSION RULES, "YOU MAY NOT":

Harvest any part of another person’s daily limit, except for persons who possess a Designated Harvester Card.

The exception for Marine areas is found on pg 98, under MARINE AREA rules,

In Washington waters where a saltwater license is valid, each angler aboard a vessel may continue to deploy angling
gear or shellfish gear until the daily limit of fish and shellfish for all licensed and juvenile anglers aboard has been achieved.

What happened was my buddy set the hook with MY ROD because he hadnt caught one. Then. 10 seconds later his rod gets hammered. So he hands the rod back to me to fight his own. He then loses his fish and the one i have is finished and 2 feet from the boat. So we net and mark on his card cause it was originally suppose to be his fish but i ended up being forced to reel him in. Kinda confusing and dumb i got a ticket for it. THE GAME WARDEN MADE UP THE MAJORITY THING...

If it is just this "majority thing" I don't think it will hold any weight and cannot be enforced unless it is in some obscure place in the rules pamphlet (I could not find it). However, the fact that you took the rod 10 seconds after your buddy set the hook, you played the fish to the boat, and subsequently landed the fish, yet did not mark/punch your card will be the tough part. It will be interesting to see how this goes and I hope you prevail.

[Mike Carey]

sorry for the very huge fine, and I hope it works out for you. That said, this has been a very informative thread and for sure reminds us to be aware of the regs in all their multi-faceted confusing shades.

[Toni]

Maybe they were watching you so closely because of this:
http://riverchromeguideservice.homestead.com/index.html
There aren't suppose to be guides on the lake. Or what I mean is guides taking money for it. So they were watching you more closely than someone else out there?

[Marc Martyn]

They should be checking licenses, peoples fish and safety gear, on all the boats daily so they can check as many people as possible in a day for violations, not following one person around until they do one small little harmless thing like this just so they can give a couple kids a ticket.

One older guy driving with a mustache and a younger kid in front.

i support fish and game enforcement 100% but i do not agree with the things some of our enforcement waste's their time and OUR money on now days, spending hours to follow and ticket a kid for "boat fishing" because i held the rod for longer than my buddy?

As an young adult, one has to learn to accept responsibility for his own actions. When you are issued a license, either for fishing or for driving a vehicle, you are expected to follow the laws and understand them. The state decided on a 16 year old age because they figured that at that age one would clearly be able to understand the laws.

Stop playing the "kid" card. You are a licensed guide and should know the regulations. If a 16 year old driver runs a stop light and is given a ticket, claiming that he is "just a kid" is meaningless.

[RiverChromeGS]

I'm just a regular Joe who gets tired of people not owning up for their actions. You didnt want to tag out, handed your buddy the rod and got a ticket. So be it. I am new to the site and sorry for the harsh first post, but darn it, I couldn't sit back and not comment. The post stuck in my craw and I started typing. No offense to you fishenfreak, just wish more people would own up to their mistakes.

its not like i purposely reeled my own fish in, hoping game wardens wernt watching, tried to be sneaky and purposely broke the law. when the warden first pulled up to my boat and said we broke the law, i HONESTLY had no idea what he was talking about at first, i didnt even know what i did!! My buddy was suppose to reel the fish in, we had planned to have him reel in whatever fish bit any pole next. The double header forced me to reel the one fish in, but i figured since he set the hook and the fish was suppose to be his in the first place, that we were in our rights to mark it on his card, even tho i had to reel the fish in after he handed it back to me. Would you like to show me where in the rule book it says "its your fish if you reel it in." why are you dismissing the possibility that whoever set the gear and set the hook claims the fish, regardless of who simply reels the handle until the fish is close? My point is that i got a 540$ ticket for something that IS NOT IN THE RULE BOOK. show me in the book where it says because i reeled the fish in after a handoff, that i am the one who has to mark it, and i will shutup and own up to the ticket. Otherwise, im going to go to court, and going to get the ticket thrown out on monday

I would have owned up to my mistake if it was a ticket for anything else. FIshing with 3 on my card? fine, my fault, forgetting the mark a fish? Ok fine my fault. But this ticket i simply dont agree with, and what the time the warden wasted trying to follow me for the majority of the morning to give this BS ticket instead of doing something more useful to the fishery? I simply dont agree with it at all

[RiverChromeGS]

One a more somber note. I would guess "boat fishing" occurs on the water, a very high percentage of the time.

i wouldnt doubt if 75% of the boats do it, but i didnt do it on purpose, like i wasnt purposely trying the break the law and be sneaky about it, it just happened because of the double header situation, and since buddy set the hook and originally controlled the fish, i thought it would be ok if we marked on his card. (again nothing in rule book against this)

About the "one side" thing, what i have told you here is the truth, i wouldnt lie to you guys on here if i had believed i deserved the ticket.

ANd about him following me, it was because and only because i was catching fish quite often, fish jumping, coming off ect... the wardens targeted me because... well, how you gonna break the law if you arent catching fish right (at least on baker). So he watched and waited for 2+ hours, always within yelling distance of me.

[Bodofish]

An awful lot of thumb in the armpit going on from the judge jury and executioners out there. Each and every one of you should be ashamed of yourselves and I mean that from the bottom of my soul. FF got a ticket, big deal, doesn't mean he's guilty of anything. That's the bottom line, no ifs and or buts, period, end of report. Last time I checked we still live in the good ole USA. We have a couple documents here, one is call the Constitution and the other is the Bill of Rights, they protect us from what you goons (don't think I'm not using the term correctly) are trying to pull over on FF. He's not guilty of anything. The enforcement officer perceived FF had not followed the regulations, that is all. He's not right or wrong, just is. The next step is court, where it will be decided if he is guilty of an infraction or not. Personally I think with the proper representation, FF will walk out with no fine or infraction on his record and the officer will have a nasty brow beating from the judge. One damning thing the officers did was follow him around, profiling, harassment, it goes by many names.

So from here on out I really don't expect to hear or see any of that man up and take your lumps junk. It's totally uncalled for and unwarranted. There are two sides to the law, be darn glad of that.

[RiverChromeGS]

^^^ thanks for the support Bodo, and totally agree with your post,

Like i said, i had no idea what i had even done wrong when the warden pulled up a long side me, IMO i had done nothing wrong. And after checking the rules to find out there wasnt even a rule about the "majority thing" the warden made up... i really didnt think i deserved a 500$ ticket.

I would totally own up to the ticket if i thought i deserved it, im an honest guy and fisherman, but in this case i think the ticket is BS, again thanks bodo,

ill let yall know what happens monday!!

[MotoBoat]

Maybe they were watching you so closely because of this:
http://riverchromeguideservice.homestead.com/index.html
There aren't suppose to be guides on the lake. Or what I mean is guides taking money for it. So they were watching you more closely than someone else out there?

It does appear to be "other" circumstances at play. The ultimate question, I suppose is: IF the freak knew that was a fish cop following him around "all day". Would he have done anything different?

What now appears to be clear to me, thanks to your unlucky situation. Is if more than one person is fishing and there is multiple rods fished. Rods designated to each fisher or not. Rods accessible to each person due to boat configuration or not. While fishing In fresh water, because a rod with a fish on it, may need to be handed off (due to boat seat layout) to that fishermen intended to real in and retain that fish, and the possibility of children involvement. There becomes the issue of "mostly reeled in by". And that the person that plays the fish to the boat does not have the option to punch a card other than there own. So, the card being punched needs to be the one reeling in the fish.

Big learning curve lesson for all of us, at the freaks expense. Getting a ticket of any kind sucks! Finding out the boat fishing around you was a prop and resulted in a ticket sucks! Based on that, deciding the efforts of WDFW would have been better served as you suggested. Is a argument WDFW is willing to except by not issuing a warning.

[RiverChromeGS]

^^ yea, the fact that the reeling in for the majority thing IS NOT in the rule book makes me wonder what gave him the right to give me a ticket for it. They need something in the rule book honestly, because i beleive the more difficult part of fishing is running the right gear to trick the fish, not who simply reels it in, meaning the guy who set the gear and is controlling it is responsible for the fish on that rod, but then that would put guides out of business, ect... but until theres a defined rule in the book that says I should have marked that fish, I will not just fess up and pay the ticket.

Its like getting a speeding ticket on a road without a speed limit sign, and the cop stopped you and said "well this is a small windy road, and although there is no ACTUAL SPEED LIMIT im giving you a ticket because you were going to fast in my opinion." They should not be able to do this

[rseas]

540 sammolies! Holey smokes! We need to start up a ticket fund for FF.

[MotoBoat]

^^ yea, the fact that the reeling in for the majority thing IS NOT in the rule book makes me wonder what gave him the right to give me a ticket for it. They need something in the rule book honestly, because i beleive the more difficult part of fishing is running the right gear to trick the fish, not who simply reels it in, meaning the guy who set the gear and is controlling it is responsible for the fish on that rod, but then that would put guides out of business, ect... but until theres a defined rule in the book that says I should have marked that fish, I will not just fess up and pay the ticket.

Its like getting a speeding ticket on a road without a speed limit sign, and the cop stopped you and said "well this is a small windy road, and although there is no ACTUAL SPEED LIMIT im giving you a ticket because you were going to fast in my opinion." They should not be able to do this

I get your point about driving down the road to fast. Except even when a speed is posted. There is a law that covers "going to fast for conditions" and is at the cops discretion. Like it or not. Basically, if road conditions, such as in the winter time become to severe to safely travel the posted speed limit. That speed limit is drastically reduced and the city or state does not change up the speed limit sign to accommodate a driver lacking in the common sense to slow down.

Like I said earlier. I had no idea there was the term fishing for the boat. But had a feeling reeling in a fish with the intention of giving it to another person on board to help them obtain a daily limit, and for the person giving the fish away avoids limiting and having to stop fishing, was "NOT" okay!! If I have caught 4 of my 5 trout limit and my dad has one. Do I get to legally reel in the next 5 fish, giving him 4 of them? Or am I obligated to hand off my rod for him to reel it in? Or am I obligated to reel in the 5 fish, then put away two of the rods ( two pole end.), and wait it out until my dad catches the balance of his limit? I suppose how many rods are being fished is factored into the equation. Any experienced fishermen knows, the more rods fishing the better the chance of catching. The way to take advantage of that higher catch percentage and avoid removing rods is to play with the numbers needed to reach............... fishermen x daily limit = a daily boat limit. That is the hard reality, again why the rule exists is beyond me.

With the help of Hewsfisher. I now know it is okay to help each other catch a daily limit while on salt water. But not okay in fresh. Difference being Marine area vs Fresh water. And the rule does not follow the Salmon on its journey from salt to fresh.

Freak, from the outside looking in. It appears you "attempted" to help your partner catch a limit, which you can not do. They must reel in there fish if to record it on there punch card. You were fine right up until the fish was on board! The grey area lies, on which Salmon punch card was the fish recorded?

That is based on Hewesfishers post:

In regard to a "boat limit" in fresh water, the answer is on pg 12 in the HARVEST AND POSSESSION RULES, "YOU MAY NOT":

Harvest any part of another person’s daily limit, except for persons who possess a Designated Harvester Card.



The exception for Marine areas is found on pg 98, under MARINE AREA rules,

In Washington waters where a saltwater license is valid, each angler aboard a vessel may continue to deploy angling
gear or shellfish gear until the daily limit of fish and shellfish for all licensed and juvenile anglers aboard has been achieved.

In my opinion your defending against "harvesting part of another persons limit", in fresh water. ("Part", since that limit was not obtained).

The rule seems unnecessary to me, especially since it is okay to help with that limit when in a marine area. But then, I do not know the reasoning used to implement the rule.

[RiverChromeGS]

my point that your missing with all of this is WHERE in the book does it says the guy who reels the fish in for the majority of the time means he is the one who must mark it?

Like i said, since he set the gear and got the bite on his rod, that seems to me like the hardest part, and should go on that persons card regardless of who merely reeled it in. Yes, yes, i know, its common knowledge that the guy who reels it in puts it on their card... but there is NO ACTUAL rules against it, meaning i DO NOT deserve a ridiculous 540$ ticket for it. My buddy hadnt caught a fish all day, and he put on some new gear and got the bite, he switched it up and got a fish, he was rewarded for his change! But unfortunately i had to reel HIS fish in because another rod went off, since he did all that work to get his first bite, regardless of who reeled it in, we thought hell yea its your fish you were smart enough to switch it up and get a bite, who cares if i reeled it in?

Does that not make sense to you?? cause it makes complete sense to me... and thats my reasoning and argument

I reeled a fish in that my buddy did all the work to set up the gear, bait the hook and set the hook and hold the rod until the fish was under control, because i merely reeled it in, in my opinion, DOES NOT mean that it must go on my card. The warden made that up on the water, most likely because he followed me for 2 hours, thought i had 3 on my card and stopped me to give me a ticket for fishing after having a limit on my card, but since i only had 2 on my card, HE MADE UP the "majority" rule to make his efforts of following me worth-wile. Personally, i do not trust wardens judgement on making up laws, i know 20 year veteran wardens who cant tell the difference between a sockeye and a coho...

in my opinion i did not "harvest a portion of another persons limit" because he set the gear and hooked the fish, in my opinion that is his fish, not mine, reeling it in is the easy part,

You dont have to agree with me but you must at least understand where im coming from

[MotoBoat]

my point that your missing with all of this is WHERE in the book does it says the guy who reels the fish in for the majority of the time means he is the one who must mark it?

Like i said, since he set the gear and got the bite on his rod, that seems to me like the hardest part, and should go on that persons card regardless of who merely reeled it in. Yes, yes, i know, its common knowledge that the guy who reels it in puts it on their card... but there is NO ACTUAL rules against it, meaning i DO NOT deserve a ridiculous 540$ ticket for it. My buddy hadnt caught a fish all day, and he put on some new gear and got the bite, he switched it up and got a fish, he was rewarded for his change! But unfortunately i had to reel HIS fish in because another rod went off, since he did all that work to get his first bite, regardless of who reeled it in, we thought hell yea its your fish you were smart enough to switch it up and get a bite, who cares if i reeled it in?

Does that not make sense to you?? cause it makes complete sense to me...

I reeled a fish in that my buddy did all the work to set up the gear, bait the hook and set the hook and hold the rod until the fish was under control, because i merely reeled it in, in my opinion, DOES NOT mean that it must go on my card. The warden made that up on the water, most likely because he followed me for 2 hours, thought i had 3 on my card and stopped me to give me a ticket for fishing after having a limit on my card, but since i only had 2 on my card, HE MADE UP the "majority" rule to make his efforts of following me worth-wile. Personally, i do not trust wardens judgement on making up laws, i know 20 year veteran wardens who cant tell the difference between a sockeye and a coho...

in my opinion i did not "harvest a portion of another persons limit" because he set the gear and hooked the fish, in my opinion that is his fish, not mine, reeling it in is the easy part,

You dont have to agree with me but you must at least understand where im coming from

I do not have to agree with the reasoning. But do understand your logic. One thing is for sure. If I received the ticket, I would not be happy about it either. Not being there to witness how it all went down. Helping with a limit is what went down. I am not saying getting a ticket is right or wrong. Nor do I think who set the gear and how difficult that is, has anything to do with the infraction committed. Who knows, I might come up with all kinds of reasons why what I did was okay. But I would rather effectively spend my time defending your position against the infraction. Which is what? My buddy did the hard part, was his rod, and I was going to give him the next fish anyway? Might need to simplify to the basic terms. What translates to"catching a fish" and who rightfully records the caught fish, based on the waters in which it was caught. Monday is right around the corner. I wish you Good Luck.

[RiverChromeGS]

Might need to simplify to the basic terms. What translates to"catching a fish" and who rightfully records the caught fish, based on the waters in which it was caught. Monday is right around the corner. I wish you Good Luck.

exactly, thing is there is no set rule, so how could the ticket possibly stand? At least im optimistic that it will not!

[Mike Carey]

this makes me nervous just popping the rod off the downrigger clip and handing it to JoAnn.