WDFW & Kalispel Tribe Meetings on Northern Pike

[sparky1doug]

This is not a statement of fact but rather a possible senario worth discussing. What if this were not entirely a matter of "bucket biology". Climate change being a factor, are the Northern Pike migrating back to waters formally inhabited many thousands of years ago. There may be fossil evidence that indicates they may be a native species to what is now the State of Washington. It is possible they predate what is now referenced as native species. As average annual temperatures rise former species are migrating all over the world, why not here? Is this an invasive species or one returning to habitats once again condusive to survival?

[Drumdog]

Dude..Really? I think that was a simple copy and pasted article. Looks like the person was just trying to be helpful. Chill out a little would ya please?

Where in that post did it say it was a copy and paste from a newspaper article? It was the first post by a new user with many inaccurate statements that I feel need to be pointed out. If you quote a paper then you should say so in the post. I took it as his words as I don't read newspapers from Spokane. So don't jump on me for pointing out the errors in the facts of the post when he didn't disclose the source of the information..

I won't be able to make the meetings, but I would like to know more about this.
Fish-N-Fool, you say you pointed out errors in the facts of the post and called the post a pack of lies.
Forgive me if I missed something, but where did you point out the errors in the facts and what parts are lies in the post? What facts do you have and what data do you have to back your facts up? I am only looking to learn more about this as I have become an avid pike fisherman over the last couple of years. I would hate to see the fishery go away,in fact I would love to see more pike lakes in Eastern Washington so I would love to hear about your facts and data.

[Don Wittenberger]

Hello everyone, I haven't said much about this issue yet, but as the muskie/pike fishing community's representative on IFPAG (WDFW's inland fisheries policy board), I've been closely following it and talking with department staff about it.

Before I discuss this issue, I'd like to mention that I intend to visit all 3 muskie clubs this year; but for personal medical reasons, that won't happen until later in the year. For the same reason, I will NOT be able to attend this month's meetings in the Spokane area. I recently had eye surgery and it'll be at least a couple of months before I can drive again, and I've been told not to fly or cross Snoqualmie Pass because the altitude change could mess up the surgery.

I want to start by addressing a couple points in the comments above. I'm not a biologist and don't know whether pike were ever a native species here, but I strongly doubt it. Geologists tell us the Pacific Northwest landscape as we know it is about 16,000 years old. Prior to that, it was covered by Ice Age glaciers. Consequently, this landscape and its fauna have a short geological and biological history. (By contrast, Pacific salmon and their precursors have been around for about 40 million years.) Human habitation of the Pacific Northwest goes back at least 9,000 years, and we have no indication from Native American culture that pike were known to the region's pre-modern human inhabitants. The known native range of northern pike is separated from the Pacific Northwest by high mountains; it's hard to see how they could have migrated over the Continental Divide without human assistance. The pike we have today in the POR and Long Lake probably came from Montana where they're also non-native, invasive, and have damaged native fisheries.

As for the suggestion of stocking pike in Sprague Lake, WDFW doesn't like that idea and assures me it won't happen. The state recently spent $500,000 to rehabilitate Sprague, which now has the species balance WDFW wants. At one time, WDFW considered putting tiger muskies but that idea is no longer in play. I'm working with WDFW to get a new tiger muskie lake north of Seattle and I've been more or less promised that will be worked on this year.

It's obvious a lot of emotion is being invested in the POR pike issue. I think it's important we keep the debate as factual -- and as civil -- as possible. I believe it's worthwhile for those interested in this issue to attend the meetings and listen to WDFW staff's explanations of what they're doing. WDFW also intends to use these meetings to get public feedback; at this point, they haven't decided on a pike control strategy or finalized any plans, and are willing to listen to and consider any ideas you come up with.

There is a context for WDFW's approach to this issue, however. WDFW considers pike an unwanted invasive species and holds some degree of concern that pike, if allowed to move into the Columbia River system, might find favorable habitat and establish a reproducing population somewhere downstream. But their main concern is with the "bucket biology" spread of pike into other lakes and streams; this is illegal, destructive to other fisheries, and they want to strongly discourage it. All sport anglers, no matter what their feelings about WDFW's pike policies, should be on board with preventing illegal stocking of pike or any other fish species.

The WDFW biologists I've talked to don't think it's possible to eradicate the pike from the POR. They would if they could, but the river is just too big. The netting planned for this spring is intended to collect data and the nets are designed to let other fish escape; WDFW tells me the by-catch in their pike survey nets is very small. WDFW plans to follow up the pike survey with a standard net survey to help their biologists to assess the pike's impact on POR's other fish populations. These netting surveys are not designed to, and will not, remove large numbers of fish from the river.

For those who love catching big pike, the biggest threat to big pike is likely to be, not WDFW's control efforts, but the river's natural progression. Like all of our inland fisheries, the POR is in flux, and will continue changing. The big pike probably are a temporary phenomenon regardless of what anyone does. They'll eventually eat out their food supply, then disappear of their own accord. Efforts to control the exploding population of "hammer handles" that compete with big pike for a shrinking food supply will, if anything, extend the period of time that we have big pike in the POR, but the big pike fishery may be a limited-time experience simply because of the way that fish population dynamics work.

[YJ Guide Service]

I dont think anyone on here is supporting the actions of bucket biologists, atleast i havent seen any posts incourageing anything of the sort. No one wants to see the Pike in any other waters then where they are right now, in the PO River. I think the biggest problem we have now is that were starting to see some groups and people being singled out like they are the cause of the planting of the Pike in other bodies of water. The people on this forum and the people from the Pike and Muskie clubs are more informed than most of the public as fas as whats at stake if the fish are found in other bodies of water. No one wants to see them kill off lakes that are stocked with Muskie and other species. The people (bucket biologists) were talking about here are the people that have no respect for the lakes and the outdoors and only have their personal interests in mind. I dont think its right either that its being held over our heads that if we dont stop supporting the Pike then we are going to make people mad and they will stop supporting the Tiger program. Last time i checked we still live in a free country where we have right to voice our concerns on the subjects we love and where does it say we have to choose which fish we want to support...God Bless America

[Don Wittenberger]

No one's accusing anyone of illegal stocking. It happens, but the perps are unknown. A few years ago, someone planted pike in an Olympic Peninsula lake and WDFW had to spend money to rehab the lake, but the "bucket biologist" wasn't caught. (WDFW sure would like to know who did it, because state law allows WDFW to sue responsible parties for rehab costs.) WDFW doesn't want pike spreading this way to Spokane-area lakes, and saying that doesn't accuse anyone. So, it's factually incorrect to say the clubs or their members are being accused, because they're not. Fishing club members almost without exception are dedicated sportsmen and law-abiding citizens, and neither I nor anyone else believes this kind of activity comes from fishing clubs or their members. WDFW's educational efforts are aimed at the entire public and WDFW involves the clubs in this effort to get their help in getting the word out to the public.

[YJ Guide Service]

Support your Tiger Muskie groups and support your Pike fishery everyone

[YJ Guide Service]

I think we need to get back to the issue of everyone needs to show up at these meetings. The business's of Pend Oreille County need to also come and show their support for the fishery that has brought money into the area and learn for themselves what WDFW's plan is for the river. See you all at the meetings next week...

[Lucius]

For those who love catching big pike, the biggest threat to big pike is likely to be, not WDFW's control efforts, but the river's natural progression. Like all of our inland fisheries, the POR is in flux, and will continue changing. The big pike probably are a temporary phenomenon regardless of what anyone does. They'll eventually eat out their food supply, then disappear of their own accord. Efforts to control the exploding population of "hammer handles" that compete with big pike for a shrinking food supply will, if anything, extend the period of time that we have big pike in the POR, but the big pike fishery may be a limited-time experience simply because of the way that fish population dynamics work.

I respect and admire your efforts you have put forth for the muskie and pike fisheries in the state of washington Don, but I am going to strongly disagree with this statement you have made. If this premise is true, then I think in some form it would apply to all fisheries and trophy fisheries for a lot of other species still remain after decades of existence. Pike have coexisted with other species of fish for thousands of years in thousands of bodies of water across the world and there still remains plenty of trophy pike in these bodies of water. Well balanced ecosystems have a healthy, corresponding population of Apex predators. As of right now the pike are exploiting the vast available forage in the POR and they are experiencing an explosion in population. If left un-touched (no human influence) the ecosystem would balance out but unfortunately we don't have that kind of patience or time as it would take a long time before balance is obtained as I know you know we all know this.

We are all well aware that the pike will never be removed from the POR. Even if the the POR were smaller it would still be extremely difficult to totally remove the pike for the river. We avid pike anglers want what the WDFW wants and that is to bring the ecosystem back in a controllable balance by thinning the population of smaller pike. And with the research we have done, the best chance at accomplishing this is by changing the size structure from a large population of small fish to a smaller population of larger fish. This is best accomplished by having protected slots limits to protect those larger fish. In turn the anglers must do their part and harvest the smaller pike. The only other option that has had some success is to be able to control the water levels during the spawn, but that involves messing with the power company's money, which I don't think is a very likely option. Again from the research that has been done removing the larger spawing females is only going to further promote a large population of smaller fish as the smaller fish will sexually mature sooner and start spawning. then there will be thousands of smaller fish spawning as compared to maybe a few hundred larger fish spawning.

The cat is out of the bag and change is upon us and as we all know change is inevitable. We must move forward and look at the potential of the future and remember the glory days of the past. An opportunity for success is upon us and we can all come to an agreement with both sides satisfied, we will just have to compromise.

For Love of The Pike:cheers:

[YJ Guide Service]

Amen Lucius that just about says it all....

[sparky1doug]

Thank you Lucius, to the point and well said! Don you mentioned "WDFW also intends to use these meetings to get public feedback; at this point, they haven't decided on a pike control strategy or finalized any plans, and are willing to listen to and consider any ideas you come up with". This is great news! A positive move of compromise, I would love to believe they are ready listen and seriously consider our ideas and proposals.

[Natebg1]

Hey Sparky, Lucius, Craig and fellow Pike anglers,

Well after plenty of research myself and doing some studying of the Pike issue in other areas of the world the main focus of growing larger Pike is having the right abundance of nutrients, cover or forage and diet of particular fish for the Pike to go after, since they are predatory. So if you think of this measure than it seems almost blatantly obvious that Gill Netting destroys at least two of those things. So in essence if food and cover areas are widely affected then the ability for Pike to grow is almost impossible. The other negative to this fact in regards to the growth potential is that Pike will travel further in order to continue finding food and cover to survive which might explain what Doug was saying about them traveling over from Idaho and Montana. I would tend to believe that Pike would travel much quicker towards the Columbia River with the Gill Netting taking away there livable habitat then they would if the Gill Netting wasn't in place. Pike are more of an opportunistic feeder so they will stay put in an area that has what they need. However if that is taken away they will move on and find a way to survive somewhere else. So if you put the pieces together, yes you might not be able to get all the Pike out of the Pend Oreille River but You certainly can make a significant impact and cause them to move further down the river thru Gill netting. Amazing what happens when so many avid Pike anglers work together and do some research what can be found out that maybe wasn't completely clear. Great job everyone on bringing some phenominal points to this conversation. Now let's continue to hear what the WDFW has to say and help with educating further on this subject. Who knows what will happen from here, but at least our voices are starting to be heard on some levels. I always say any publicity is Good Publicity, keep digging and finding out what else is out there I'm sure there are others who are even more knowledgable on the Pike that can bring a whole lot more to this discussion. Take it easy everyone, good to see this isn't going away!

Nate

[ingi]

well said doug

[Kfedka]

[img=http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/4140/pikepor.jpg]Pike[/img]
Quoted from the Spokesman Review.

Stomach contents of a Pend Oreille River northern pike captured for research are displayed to illustrate the size, quantity and variety of fish the voracious predators consume. “Even an 8-inch juvenile pike can eat the fingerlings of other fish, and they grow fast,” said Jason Connor, fisheries biologists with the Kalispel Tribe. “By 15 inches, it caneat adult perch and a 24-inch pike can easily consume 15-inch trout. Plus, their appetites are incredible. We’ve caught pike with up to 15 fish in their bellies.”

Here is original link: http://www.spokesman.com/photos/2011/apr/09/130135/

Now let me see how many Trouts there are from the contents of this Pike's stomach. Hmm, I can't find any, can you? Based on this image anyone can get a good idea as to what Pike eat. Somethings that is slow and easy to catch. Catching dozens or a hundred of Pikes via gill net should be plenty for their "research" but 755 Pike come on don't sell that to us. Makes me wonder how much Pike they will need to gill net this year to "complete" their research.

[dougw]

Sure see a lot of trout in those stomach contents..... How many trout were found in the stomachs of the pike they have collected to date? Does anyone know?

[Mark K]

Looks like that Pike ate a whole bunch of other non native species... Looks like the Trout escaped though, phew!

[Mark K]

My response sent to The Spokesman Review,

I would just like to point out that in the picture of the Pend Oreille River Pike's stomach content dated April 9th, 2011 Jason Connor says “By 15 inches, it can eat adult perch and a 24-inch pike can easily consume 15-inch trout. Plus, their appetites are incredible. We’ve caught pike with up to 15 fish in their bellies.”

In the photo provided there are no trout, it looks like Perch, Pumpkinseed, and possibly a Crappie. None of these fish in the picture are native to the Pend Oreille River system. The fish they are concerned about are the West Slope Cut Throat, and the Bull trout. I think the photo provided to you by the Kallispel Tribe shows the same thing their studies do, the Pike are not eating the trout.

The biggest problem the trout in the Pend Oreille River are facing is when they put Box Canyon Dam in in the 50's, it effectively turned the river into a warm water fishery. Summer water temperatures are to warm for the trout. But species like the Large Mouth Bass (Non Native) flourished. Next came the Northern Pike and the Small Mouth Bass, and with the warm water and the multiple back bays and sloughs they seem to have found their "niche".

They are now showing a decline in Large Mouth Bass numbers in the river, but just like Long Lake in Spokane I think the finger can be pointed at the Small Mouth Bass. In a June 22nd 2008 Spokesman review article by Rich Landers, Joe Maroney, fisheries manager for the Kalispel Tribe was quoted saying "I've told the bass clubs that bass aren't showing much in the pike diet at this time", and he looks to be correct still today judging by the photo Mr. Connor so graciously shared with everybody.

[Lucius]

Sure see a lot of trout in those stomach contents..... How many trout were found in the stomachs of the pike they have collected to date? Does anyone know?

from the survey they conducted starting last year up to about the middle of March this year....are you ready for this number.....5.

[YellowBear]

Pike are just like any other preditor.
They will feed on what ever is most abundant.
If the population is mostly Panfish (as is the case in the Pend Orellie), then you will find Panfish will make up most of the diet.
If the population were to be mostly Trout, then you could expect to find Trout in the bellies of the Pike.
I started fishing the Pend Orellie in the late 60s. I cannot remember ever catching a Trout out of there.

[Fish-N-Fool]

Pike are just like any other preditor.
They will feed on what ever is most abundant.
If the population is mostly Panfish (as is the case in the Pend Orellie), then you will find Panfish will make up most of the diet.
If the population were to be mostly Trout, then you could expect to find Trout in the bellies of the Pike.
I started fishing the Pend Orellie in the late 60s. I cannot remember ever catching a Trout out of there.

I catch them there all the time and I never fish for them/ I get a lot of big Rainbows up to 26"on crankbaits fishing for SM. and well as on my Sink-N-Fool baits bass fishing. I mostly get them up by the dam. I get a lot of Big Browns and some Cuts too. Got a big Cut last year with a radio tag hanging out of it. Trust me there are plenty of trout in the PDO. Pike don't eat Trout because they don't inhabit the same waters.

[YJ Guide Service]

Tonites the meeting in Newport at 6pm at the Create Arts Center 900 W 4th Ave. Please everyone if you have well thought out questions for WDFW please bring them and get them answered. I hope we have business owners that come as well...This not a complaining sessision but a time to hear what WDFW's plans are for the river and your chance to have your suggestions heard by them. See everyone there tonite....