Why Release Muskies?

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Dr Hook
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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by Dr Hook » Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:52 pm

Don Wittenberger wrote:Five years has never seemed like a short time to me.
I understand that 5 years is a long time for you, but its not like you have to keep your boat in the garage for 5 years. I can't think of many freshwater fish that grow that big that fast. In fact I can't think of single freshwater fish which lives in WA waters that even comes close to that.

Tigers can attain a length of 20 inches in their first year and 30 inches in their second year, that is a very fast growth rate! They are a man made sterile fish so all their energy goes into growing big, thats also why they have a short life span.
Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by YellowBear » Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:47 pm

Don,
Can you tell me what is the main forage of the Muskie?
I have been doing a little research on this critter and he seems to be a threat to almost everything, LOL.

It seems that the demise of the Muskie fishery back East stems towards Muskie fisherman, at least in part.
I found out that these fish are highly territorial and will set up and defend an area in the lake.
When a fisherman gets a strike in a certain spot but misses the fish, all you have to do is return to the same area and you can expect the Muskie will still be there.

Now don't get me wrong here. I don't want to see the Muskie program shut down.
I do however know more guys that want to see them gone than those that don't.

The Tiger Muskie was stocked in this State as a tool to control Rough fish.
The fact that it makes a good sport fish has no bearing on why its here.
We already have big fish here to catch.
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Don Wittenberger
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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by Don Wittenberger » Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:25 pm

YB, their forage may vary depending on the forage base of the lake they're in, but in general, here in Washington they feed primarily on northern pikeminnow (aka squawfish) and suckers. WDFW has conducted diet studies; rather than post those results here, where they'll get buried, I think I'll post that information in a new thread.

It's true that you can often go back and "work" a fish after seeing a follow or missing a strike, and they'll sometimes stay in the same spot for several days, but they don't stay put indefinitely. If you come back several weeks later and find a fish on that spot, chances are it's a different fish. The old-time belief that muskies are solitary and territorial creatures that guard a spot has been debunked by modern research. We've learned:

1. Muskies roam, sometimes several miles a day.
2. Numerous muskies may congregate within a small area.
3. Muskies have been observed to feed in packs.
4. There's sometimes more than 1 muskie on a spot or structural element.

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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by Gone Fishin » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:37 am

I have been reading the posts in the forum for quite some time now and rarely have I voiced my opinion on the catch and release topic because it seems to get so heated. I do have to say that it has stayed fairly mellow this time which I think is good if people want to get their point across.

To start, I have caught 6 muskies now this year, all released. Just released a 39 inch muskie and a 46 1/2 inch 25lb muskie caught in Newman lake last week. I personally have no need or desire to keep one. There are plenty of other fish that probably taste better (I suggest the catfish in sprague and the trout at rufus woods).

I think raising the limit to 48 or 50 inches is a bit crazy! There doesn't seem to be an issue with catching big fish right now with the 36 inch limit. I do agree that something like a 42 inch minimum could be good but not 50. If nobody was able to keep a muskie until it reached 48 or 50 inches not nearly as many would be kept. With continued stocking, the number of muskies in the lake would increase quite a bit. I have read the studies about what they eat and I have personally talked with a fish and wildlife biologist about it. They eat anything that swims that they can fit in their mouth. More muskies = lots more eating. A lot of the fish they eat are "garbage fish" that can be detrimental to the lake. They have shown to be successful at helping lakes in that sense. They also do eat the trout, bass and other game fish. If "too many" muskies were to inhabit a lake, they WOULD have an impact on the other fish we love to catch. How many is too many? I don't think anybody really knows. The lakes that have had them for several years now, don't seem to be harmed by them. In some cases they have helped. Raising the minimum length would increase the number of large muskies in the lake, which it is hard to say the impact that it would have on the other fish. A balance needs to be kept. It is tough to determine at what point that balance is, because not enough is known about them. The muskie fishing seems to be doing good now, from what I have seen. A small change to the requirement such as 42 inches would definately help people catch a bigger fish, and probably wouldn't have much affect on the lake. Raising the limit to 50 inches would almost prevent people from keeping any fish and could have a large impact on the lake.

I was told by a fish and wildlife biologist that one very big reason that they plant them, is that it gives people a chance to catch a really big fish. A chance that you dont normally have with other game fish. With consistent stocking by fish and wildlife the muskie fishing has done just fine with the current requirements. I don't think at this time there is a need to make a drastic change like the one that some people want. I agree in trying to prevent problems, but I dont agree in possibly creating larger problems in the process.

I love fishing for and catching muskies and I release them all. I think they are good for the lakes and should be stocked in them. I also think that small changes are better than very large changes, and this should be approached with reason. If it aint broke why fix it? I think that both Don and Hook have put thought into this and have gone about this logically, I just think that Don's proposal is a bit extreme. A little moderation can go a long way.

Sorry about the essay guys
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by YellowBear » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:06 am

I have targeted the Tigers only one time.
My wife and I headed over to Evergreen Res and after some time we caught two.
One was 25 inches and the other was 30.
Both of them were released unharmed and healthy.
They are by far one of the prettiest fish I have ever caught and I will go after them again.

I have never had the chance to talk with true Muskie hunters before and I have learned a lot about the Muskie in the past few weeks. Thanks guys.

Don, I think your proposal is a bit one sided but that's okay. It just shows how dedicated you are to your sport.
I have been watching the progress of the Muskie project in Eastern Washington since it started and I have done some scouting at the lakes that have been stocked. One thing that I have seen that I think is a sin is Tigers that have been harvested illegally. At Evergreen I found 7 tigers that were 20 to 25 inches that had been filleted and the carcasses had been tossed in the bushes. I found 5 at the launch at Silver one time.
I think a good proposal would be stiffer fines were the Tigers are involved. I also think there should be more money spent on educating the public. I talked to a guy at Evergreen that had caught a small Tiger that he thought was a Walleye because it had teeth. I think there are way to many people out there fishing that have no idea they are breaking laws. I talked to some fellas one day at Potholes that had some slot Bass, these guys were proud as punch and were showing these fish off to anyone that would look at them.

We are all Anglers that enjoy our sport. Whether we fish for Muskie, Walleye, Bass or anything else we share the same feelings.
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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by Dr Hook » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:44 am

The new size limit proposal is not set in stone yet. The commission will finalize the process in Feb 08. The proposal will be released for pubic input at the end of this month. Comments for/against the proposal can be submitted to commission@dfw.wa.gov. All public input will be taken in consideration for the final decision.
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by Gone Fishin » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:19 am

yellowbear, I think I agree with every statement you made. They are wonderful fish and lots of fun to target! I think no matter what the limit is you will have people that don't know the fish are illegal to keep. I have run across people who think they are pike or just don't realize (like the slot bass) that there are any length requirements on them. No matter what the limit is 36, 42 or even 50, people will harvest them, either because they don't care or they just don't know. Stiffer penalties (I'm not sure what the penalty is but make it stiffer anyway :) and a little bit of public education would be a great step towards preserving the muskie fishery. Even an article in the front of the fishing regulation pamphlet would help.

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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by Don Wittenberger » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:05 pm

GF, I'm not a biologist; I rely on people who are, and professional biologists are the source of the info I post here. I'm sure you're a good guy with the best intentions, but I feel there are some inaccuracies in the opinions you expressed. First, muskies are one of the most studied and best understood freshwater gamefish; biologists have a lot of data about them, and data, not opinions, should guide fisheries management decision making. Second, you can't increase the number of muskies in a lake by stocking more of them. It doesn't work that way. There's a maximum attainable density beyond which the lake can't support more tiger muskies no matter how many fingerlings they plant. WDFW biologists estimate this density at 0.5 tiger muskies per surface acre for Washington waters. Third, biologists know from research that tiger muskies prefer to eat soft-bodied fish like squawfish and suckers. They will eat other fish, including gamefish, but University of Minnesota studies concluded muskies don't exist in high enough densities to impact gamefish populations. Midwest fishermen would tell you the same thing; there are countless examples in that part of the country of muskie lakes with strong gamefish populations.

You are correct that WDFW biologists like being able to provide anglers with a 25-lb. fish in only five years, but rough fish control remains their primary reason for stocking tiger muskies.

Reasonable minds can differ over what the size regulation should be. The 50-inch rule I proposed is effectively mandatory C&R of everything except state record-class fish, and I don't pretend it's anything other than a no-harvest rule with respect to 98% of our tiger muskie population. I don't want anglers to be able to keep muskies, because I believe that's the key to having a quality tiger muskie fishery in our state. I understand not everyone agrees with that. Is it an "extreme" position? That's a very subjective term, and whether a person feels that way depends on his personal perspective and philosophy. In the midwest, the reverse is true; keeping muskies is considered "extreme" by the vast majority of muskie anglers, and is deeply frowned on. Wisconsin's 386,000 muskie anglers harvest fewer than 2,000 fish per year. Yet Wisconsin has a very low legal size limit -- only 34 inches statewide, with 40 inches on selected waters -- but in Wisconsin the state regulation is irrelevant in practice, because everyone practices voluntary C&R. They have a 99%-plus release rate. A 50-inch rule in Washington would result in an equivalent release rate; if our size limit goes to 50 inches, and every fish over 50 inches is kept, our release rate will be about 98% to 99%, because only 1% to 2% of the fish are that size.

My argument for 99% C&R is that we have decades of experience in other states to learn from, and those experiences taught us that angler harvest wipes out muskie fisheries and C&R is the key to thriving muskie fisheries. So I believe we should do that here, too. I can't say your point of view is wrong. There are valid arguments on both sides. However, I want to conduct this debate with the best available science.

Illegal harvest is a separate issue. That's a problem with all fish species, not just tiger muskies. Public education is an important part of it, and is a very cost-effective way to prevent inadvertent illegal harvest. Yellow Bear's point about anglers at Evergreen mistaking tiger muskies for walleyes is very interesting. I hadn't thought about that before, but I'm not surprised it happens. That's an example of where posting a few signs at boat launches could go a long way to help conserve the resource. As for intentional illegal harvest, WDFW doesn't have enough enforcement resources, and that's a funding problem. I don't have the answer for that one, other than to suggest that if we want more enforcement officers in the field, we'd better be prepared to pay higher license fees, because I doubt we can get that funding from general tax revenues. And it isn't just a matter of adding more game wardens; prosecuting attorneys in rural counties are short of resources, too, and it's hard to get them interested in prosecuting fish and game cases because they have so many problems with meth, other drug crimes, and violent crimes.

Yes, I'm passionate about these fish. I love catching them, and I want to have plenty of big tiger muskies in our waters. But I've also been very willing to share this fishery with all comers. I spend more time reading reports, the comments of other anglers on message boards, sitting on boards, talking with people on the phone, posting my own comments, attending club meetings, etc., than I do fishing. I spent a considerable amount of time writing an article on tiger muskie fishing strategies for the Washingtonlakes.com web site. I have shared knowledge and fishing tips. I want everyone to enjoy this sport. It's not simply about my having an opportunity to catch tiger muskies. I want all of you to have that opportunity, too. Some of my fellow muskie anglers feel frustrated that not everyone agrees on how this fishery should be managed. I don't feel that way at all. I feel very lucky to live in a country where people are free to have their own opinions and express them, and to have a say in what their government does.
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by muskyhunter » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:53 pm

Don..outstanding !!! I truly appreciate your appreciation for these marvelous fish. And the appreciation you show others about fishing and the great outdoors as a whole. You spend a great deal of time (your own time) educating individuals. And its great to see the devotion that you show and give to others on this site. I have learned to appreciate you and have learned a great deal from you. Though at times we differ. Which is good...not to ramble any more..but again thanks, I mean that really..take care and see you on the water..Todd
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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by muskyhunter » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:51 pm

To all those questioning the management of Muskies check out this link...http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/article ... /index.htm
This is very informative..check it out...I know it deals mainly with the midwest fishery just check it out...thanks
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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by Gone Fishin » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:18 pm

Well I think these discussions are a good public education tool for the people that do read this site. A lot of good information and some good opinions have been expressed. Really no matter what the rule is, it won't change a thing I do. I don't keep them and I don't think I could. I think most muskie fisherman feel the same, the midwest being a great example. Along with a length requirement of what ever size it ends up being, should come public ed. By telling people they can't keep a large predator, that they assume are eating all the fish they love to catch, it may cause some resentment towards the fish. I have personally seen this a couple of times with the law the way it is. People who don't understand that that predator fish may be actually helping the populations of the fish they love to catch. They are told they can't keep them and they don't understand why. This causes them to do things like "knock them out with a club and put them back in the water" and "shoot them with a bow and arrow and leave them". The guy that shot the muskie with a bow and arrow left it because he knows fish and wildlife is strict about their protection and he didn't want to get in trouble. So obviously he knows its illegal but does it anyway. People like to do things that you tell them not to. Can you stop all of them? no. Can you stop some of them by educating them? yes.

I think this forum has been great. I have to say I have learned A LOT reading posts from guys like Don and muskyguy, who doesnt seem to frequent the site as much. I probably won't post on this topic again, because Don has done a great job presenting plenty of info and I will be gone fishing for a week in idaho. Thanks guys

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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by muskyhunter » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:28 pm

Hey gone fishin guy, How ya doing? Just wondering how is the Musky fishing in Idaho. I understand that Idaho received some of the Musky fry way back in 1988 when Mayfield was planted do you know the history of why they got them and how the fishery is doing back there? And also, I don't think Northern Pike are indiginous to that state but its a great fishery from what I understand of it. Can you possibly shed some light on this subject? Oh by the way, great fish!! Thanks,Todd
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by Gone Fishin » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:59 pm

I wish I could shed some light on it but you know probably as much as I do about it. I live Washington and have never fished Idaho for muskies, only steelhead and bass. I do know that and Hauser has pulled out some very large muskies, Idaho's state record of 38 lbs 7oz. The pike fishing in Idaho I think will be my next stop. Coeur d'Alene and Pend Oreille I have been told have some good pike fishing and some pretty good size fish. Hayden lake is another one that has some large fish. Both Hayden and Coeur d'Alene hold the state record at 38 lbs 9oz pike. The pike from pend oreille have actually gotten into the pend oreille river on the washington side. Have talked to a few people including a F&W biologist that said it is pretty good fishing for them. Not huge fish yet but numbers are good. Wish I could provide more info but this is pretty much what I know. Any input from anyone else?

Oh by the way, did you see the muskie in my last newman lake post todd? Its a wonder that more people dont fish for the muskies, they really are pretty amazing.

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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by KUP » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:35 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tiger Muskies are sterile.
You can't keep them under 50 inches:
Let them do their job: Eating N.P.Minnows

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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by KUP » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:40 pm

I saw that report, Gone Fishin.. it was so great! Thank you!
Wow, 46 1/2! Nice muskie! Both pictures are great. The one of your grandfather is a treasure and the other; what a beaut! Thanks for the horizontal holds and taking the time for good releases.
Good job of passing it on! Now you can come back and catch 'em again some other day.
Tiger Muskies are sterile.
You can't keep them under 50 inches:
Let them do their job: Eating N.P.Minnows

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RE:Why Release Muskies?

Post by muskyhunter » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:52 pm

Hello Gone Fishin, Just now noticed the report. That was my birthday don't remember much that day...! Thanks for the info on the Pike. Every now and then I see the Anglers Experience fishing Show. Seth Burrell does some pike fishing I thought it was Coure'd lane. Huge fish...anyway, I just looked at those Ski photos..Awesome fish. I am glad you C P & R. They are truly great fish..Looks like your grandfather was pretty excited..good for him! You look pretty stoked too!! I would definatley like to try Curlew ( which I honestly think will give up the state record) Newman and Silver sometime...Tapps gets alot of hits mainly because its local and there are a ton of guys and girls now fishing for them. 99.9% are CPR'D. Which is good for the future of these fish. Anyway, Good luck fishing for the rest of the year. Talk at you soon...
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