Outdoor counseling legality

[fishinChristian]

Having sent numerous requests for info to the F&W folks in Olympia and receiving no reply over a couple of years, I thought I might get some answers, whether accurate or amusing remains to be seen, here. I am a licensed counselor with decades of experience in Washington, and have taken many clients hiking and fishing in groups, and have seen greater improvement than when I meet with them in an office, most of the time. I believe in the healing power of the great outdoors. I would love to take individuals and/or couples out for counseling sessions where they can fish and relax while receiving help. What I haven't been able to figure out is if I need a guide license in addition to my counselor's license. The focus would not be primarily fishing, but the state requires permits for everything imaginable. I do not want to break any laws, but I also don't want any more red tape than I absolutely am forced to have. I know Fish and Wildlife personel read these things at times, so maybe they could weigh in.

[Steelheadin360]

What is a guide?

Although not specifically defined by rule, in general, “guide” means a person who, for compensation, offers services to transport, or accompany people in their fishing activities, and instructs them by sharing fishing techniques, expertise and knowledge of the fish and waters being fished. Washington has two categories of guides. Game fish guides can operate statewide, but are limited to offering services relating only to fishing for game fish. Food fish guides offer services relating only to food fish, in freshwater areas, except they may not provide services in Lake Washington or the Columbia River downstream of the Longview Bridge.





If you are offering a professional service and exchanging money to take someone fishing you need to have a guide permit.

[Amx]

I believe the best bet is to call them instead of e-mailing them. But I've had good responses each way.

[natetreat]

Having sent numerous requests for info to the F&W folks in Olympia and receiving no reply over a couple of years, I thought I might get some answers, whether accurate or amusing remains to be seen, here. I am a licensed counselor with decades of experience in Washington, and have taken many clients hiking and fishing in groups, and have seen greater improvement than when I meet with them in an office, most of the time. I believe in the healing power of the great outdoors. I would love to take individuals and/or couples out for counseling sessions where they can fish and relax while receiving help. What I haven't been able to figure out is if I need a guide license in addition to my counselor's license. The focus would not be primarily fishing, but the state requires permits for everything imaginable. I do not want to break any laws, but I also don't want any more red tape than I absolutely am forced to have. I know Fish and Wildlife personel read these things at times, so maybe they could weigh in.

Yea, if you're taking people out with gear capable of catching fish, you need a guides license. Insurance, first aid CPR certification, business license... I'm sure you already have the pre-reqs, so it's just a matter of filling out the application and paying your taxes. Depending on where you take them, say national Forests etc. you will need to see if you need special permits for those areas. If you run a boat, you need a coast guard 6-pack license as well. That is a whole other set of requirements, a test and you need to have documented hours on the water for the area that you get licensed for. The outdoors is therapeutic no doubt, and it sounds like a great service to me! I have also worked with a therapist to take his clients out for relaxing fishing adventures. I'm not a counselor, but just being on the water is good for the soul. The application is available online through the WDFW website, it's pretty easy.

[BentRod]

Yea, if you're taking people out with gear capable of catching fish, you need a guides license. Insurance, first aid CPR certification, business license... I'm sure you already have the pre-reqs, so it's just a matter of filling out the application and paying your taxes. Depending on where you take them, say national Forests etc. you will need to see if you need special permits for those areas. If you run a boat, you need a coast guard 6-pack license as well. That is a whole other set of requirements, a test and you need to have documented hours on the water for the area that you get licensed for. The outdoors is therapeutic no doubt, and it sounds like a great service to me! I have also worked with a therapist to take his clients out for relaxing fishing adventures. I'm not a counselor, but just being on the water is good for the soul. The application is available online through the WDFW website, it's pretty easy.

Damn Nate, now how am I going to break it to my nephews that I can't take them fishing anymore because I don't have a guide license?

[Mordalphus]

How much are you charging your nephews?

[BentRod]

How much are you charging your nephews?

It's more of a barter system since they don't get much of an allowance. I usually get a cookie or cupcake and the opportunity to play with their latest action hero figures.

[Mordalphus]

Haha, I'm running up a tab on my own kids, by the time they graduate college they're going to owe me a retirement.

[MarkFromSea]

FC, I see it a little different, for discussion sake, your primary service is counselor. You're using public lands as your office. I'd give a gander in the direction of "using public lands" primarily in the county in which those lands are located.

Just for fun, maybe a "permission slip" from your patients might be wise.... Your contract with patients stating funds charged are for counseling as you are certified for.... and field trips are an option at no charge but the counseling is charged... of course they are responsible for fish license and if an injury occurs you aren't liable... run it by your insurance guy and possibly attorney.

I sent a request for clarification to the state listed "specialist", they referred it to another office.... that was last Oct.... apparently, if the listed specialist doesn't have the answer, no one does. coastal fishing... ;)

[MarkFromSea]

here's a non fishing option: http://wdfw.wa.gov/viewing/guides/yakima/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Mike Carey]

OK, gonna disagree. You're not guiding. You're counseling. That's the service you're providing and they're paying for. You're taking your clients up to a nice Alpine Lake to enjoy the outdoors, lower anxiety levels, build trust to establish a therapeutic environment to work on their specific problems. The fishing isn't what you're being paid for. If you made them lunch would that mean you needed a food vendor license?
Has our government really gotten this ridiculous?

[fishinChristian]

Yeah, Mike, I'm with you, but yeah they have gotten over the top in red tape. You'd be surprised at the red tape one has to deal with for just counseling. Do away with the government "stuff" and we could all cut fees in half. In fact, I dropped most insurance payments and did just that. I have less income, but by not doing their red tape, and only the government "stuff" I've cut the paperwork that nobody reads anyway by half.

I truly appreciate all the feedback, and I'm still not sure. Till I am, I simply won't offer the service, which is a shame. The focus is the interaction and setting. The fishing a bonus which sometimes helps people open up. I hope all of us have had discussions we never would have had in normal settings, when we were out fishing, or hunting or hiking for that matter.

Nate, et al, you're right, I do have the training and the business license. It's the principle of continuing and growing interference in a once free country that gets to me.

[MarkFromSea]

Yes Mike, they have gotten that ridiculous. FC is using due diligence to see where the lines are to avoid crossing. Remember, where we live, King County and the cities within, we're not allowed to cut down a tree that endangers our home with out getting a permit first. I and others risk a fine whenever we do. 3" diameter????

I agree with you Mike, all I'm saying is the devil is in the details. It's a counseling session per his current license and training within the state, the nature walk is the therapy. There is that line though legally, he can't guide, receive funds other than actual expenses, for the on hands acquisition of state fish or game. I think he can accomplish this with his clients contract.. CYA with the paper trail and the references to current law. I think that is what FC is looking for, the legal references and what's required to not cross the legal line.

Sounds like someone coulda used a fishin trip yesterday in Yakima to keep them from doing this today: http://www.nbcrightnow.com/story/249040 ... nd-on-fire" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AJ's Dad]

I believe one way to handle this would be to have a 30 second counseling session in the parking lot. After that 30 seconds, you say "There, you have received your session, now lets go fishing or hiking as friends" What topics you discuss while engaging in an outdoor activity is nobody elses business.
I can't even come close to telling you how much advice I have given while I was out fishing with someone. LOL Especially if I am catching more fish than they are.

[fishinChristian]

AJ's Dad:
I was thinking along those lines, or perhaps if the trip originated in Yakima, where I live, the counseling could be on the trip up there, with no charge for anything resembling guiding. And yes, I think I've done nearly as much advising while fishing as I have professionally! Some people would say I couldn't possibly be fishing anyway, since my rules include no alcohol on the boat!

MFS: You have perfectly described what I am trying to accomplish. And as far as the video, someone more crass than I might make reference to an old song about "... light my fire.", but I certainly won't. Not sure if anger management or substance abuse treatment would have been first...

[natetreat]

While I have to agree that the red tape and government interference in our lives is a problem, by the letter of the law you're guiding. It's an interesting situation, but we all know how government works. I don't recommend taking clients fishing without it. Unfortunately, your insurance won't cover your liability unless you're licensed, and you're going to need to amend your policy to cover this kind of therapy if you already haven't. By not having a guide license, you're opening yourself up to lawsuit, no matter how much you limit your liability via waivers or verbal contracts. Additionally, since it is nontraditional therapy, I imagine that it would make you a much bigger target for malpractice suits.

I would recommend that you get the 220 guide license and follow the rules. It's not worth the consequences if you get caught, you could lose your practice.

[fishinChristian]

Yeah, these past few years have convinced me that our government is out to create dependence, not foster interdependence and innovation. I'll stick to what I'm doing now. I think that the thing that galls me most though is that this government requires ethics training for counselors every year. I think they would do better to require it of themselves. Thanks, one and all!

[natetreat]

I'll stick to what I'm doing now.

I don't mean to be a stickler for the rules but if this is what you're going to stick to -

I am a licensed counselor with decades of experience in Washington, and have taken many clients hiking and fishing in groups, and have seen greater improvement than when I meet with them in an office, most of the time.

Then you are breaking the law. I spend a lot of time and money to keep my business legal, and it's unfair to the rest of us that you think that the rules don't apply to you. Get your guides license, be legal. It's 220 dollars, as much as you make for one session I'm sure, or don't take your clients fishing. You asked for the law, and we've given it to you. I'm tempted to report you to WDFW if you don't get a guides license.

[fishinChristian]

Do not judge what you do not know. Why do you think I would ask, if I'd already been doing this. I resent your implication, sir, though in the past I had thought better of you. Since you accuse in public, I respond therein. The times I took people were under the auspices of a large, bonded agency, prior to my private practice. As a county designated agency they were quite within their limits to take people on field trips, as reviewed by their large team of lawyers. While I can see your confusion, I also would recommend clarification. Go ahead, for I have never taken anyone fishing and been paid in any way for it. And, as stated before, I halved my fees, and now charge $60 per session, because people are having trouble paying the fees charged by others. If you look above, you'll see my decision. I have not and will not "guide," as previously stated.

Thanks to those who helped. Mike, feel free to edit.

[jd39]

I take my buddies fishing all of the time. Every now and again they’ll insist on buying the gas for the boat or truck, or lunch, or bait, the ice, etc…..
Do I need a guide license to allow this? It’s a form of compensation in a way, calling myself a guide would be pretty fun! Hilariously inaccurate, especially for salmon/steelhead, but I’d have fun with it. Could I then write-off trips with real guides as a R&D business expense? Write-off my truck and boat, all the fishing gear I buy in a tax year…..I could be onto something here…….maybe I am a guide after all.
Obviously I’m being facetious, at least I’m trying to be, who knows the red tape could be that ridiculous apparently.