Bass boat info needed

[Gisteppo]

Sort of a boat topic, but this is pretty specific to bass guys...

I am looking pretty seriously at building a bass boat thats going to fish better than the current crop. Outboard bass boats are a dime a dozen, you have to fish around that gigantic powerhead, have a big mean nasty prop to snag up on and cut your line, the costs are excessive, and the efficiencies are suspect.

First, we need to dispel a myth. Inboard jet pumps are MORE efficient than propellers AT CERTAIN SPEEDS. Slow speed operation (when the electric will be down) is not as efficient as a prop, but jets can do remarkable things at idle. Once you pass the 30mph threshold, inline pumps (not outboard pumps) are MORE efficient per horsepower than a similarly powered prop. True surface piercing cleavers have the edge over 75mph, but those are not the boats we are looking at.

Would John Q. BassFisher be interested in a glass jetboat as a fishing platform?

The decks are easily built to suit, and will be carpeted just like a tournament boat. Aft platform will be slightly raised with the engine underneath. NO POWERHEAD TO FISH AROUND! The only appendage will be the jet, which is round surfaced on all sides, thus severely limiting snagging potential. Shallow water operations are possible up to 6" of depth at full speed. Hull ride should be similar if not better due to weight location. Speeds should be in the 60's to keep it efficient, or even a little slower to allow for the use of a v-6 to really cut fuel use.

The motors out now have fuel use in the 26+gallons per hour range. A chevy 350 uses less fuel!

Stats from a test done by a third party magazine. The colums are WOT fuel use, 35mph fuel use, top speed, and 0-30 time. Look at the efficiency for the speed:

19" Tahiti 260 HP Berkeley Jet 15 gph 9 gph 53 mph 3.5 sec
18' Ebbtide 230 HP OMC I/O 16 gph 7.5 gph 53 mph 8.0 sec
18' Bayliner 170 HP MerCruiser I/O 14 gph 8 gph 46 mph 7.0 sec
20' Sea Ray 260 HP MerCruiser I/O 18 gph 9 gph 53 mph 4.0 sec

Well WL.com fishermen... Is it something that could be marketable? I could use an older hull thats in good shape, and depending on the engine, turn one of these out for anywhere between $8k and $15k, depending on the level of outfit.

Any questions or comments are greatly appreciated!

E

[WCCT]

I really like jet boats, and I would like to see one geared more towards bass fishemen. The only problem I see with using a glass boat, is durability. The reason most people run jet boats is to get into shallow water. No matter how careful you are, if the boat is used to its abilities, you will hit rocks. Obviously, glass boats and rocks don't really get along. I know steering is also an issue when at idle or barely moving, which would pose a problem for tournament guys when we are all out in the marina milling around waiting for blast off. There is a lot of money floating around at those times, and I would hate to be driving a jet at that time. I could be way off of everyone elses opinion on this subject, but I would rather see an aluminum hull designed for bass fishing.

[Gisteppo]

While an aluminum hull would be nice, the price point jumps dramatically, as well as a decrease in efficiency. Aluminum hulls are costly to build and rather heavy to gain the longitudinal stiffness. I like the idea as well, if given the right constraints. How often would you be running rapids with a bass boat though?

Secondly, with the newer style reverse buckets, you might be surprised what someone who is practiced in using a jet can do. Many ferries have switched to pumps precisely FOR their dockside manners. In a 2 stick system, the motor is left at abotu 1000rpm, producing plenty of thrust. The steering is as usual, but the forward and aft movement is controlled solely by the reverse bucket, and can be used to do things such as move the boat directly sideways...

Thanks for some input!

E

[skeeter bassin]

Another consideration is the amount of gear that tournament anglers carry in the boat. Not being familiar with inboard jets I do not know how much room they would tie up in the back of the boat. For me, and most bass anglers, storage is a major consideration on tournament day. Another important consideration is livewell size and placement. With most tournaments being run in the heat of summer size is a major consideration, the larger the better.

[Gisteppo]

Interesting, Ill have that in mind, thanks Skeeter.

One of the things Im going to really keep an eye on is where the center of gravity and longitudinal center of balance end up with the storage needs. Rods, reels and tackle are relatively low weight items, but a 20 gallon livewell (small) places an immovable 160lb load wherever it ends up, and I know bassers like to have at least 2.

How many gallons are the tanks in your boats? Would it be okay to have them in the center of the boat instead of in the back?

E

[Anglinarcher]

Interesting, Ill have that in mind, thanks Skeeter.

One of the things Im going to really keep an eye on is where the center of gravity and longitudinal center of balance end up with the storage needs. Rods, reels and tackle are relatively low weight items, but a 20 gallon livewell (small) places an immovable 160lb load wherever it ends up, and I know bassers like to have at least 2.

How many gallons are the tanks in your boats? Would it be okay to have them in the center of the boat instead of in the back?

E

Actually, the center of the boat would be a better location for a live well. My somewhat non-traditional Lund style has the large one up front, about 30 gallon, with the small one in back (about 20 gallon). I don't fish the tourneys any more, but if I did, this would be a far better set-up than I use to use. Must have two live wells for the tourneys, period.

Keep in mind that the storage issue is volume, not weight. Although, my tackle boxes can be pretty heavy.

I am a bit surprised that you think a glass hull is lighter than an aluminum. It may be, but my 18' aluminum was 25 to 30% lighter than the glass hulls that compared to it when I was buying. You probably know more than I do on the subject though. I would have no problems with using a glass hull. Just keep in mind that for a bass boat, you want wide, wide, did I say wide, stable, with lots of room. In a tourney, it can get pretty hectic and the more room the better. Oh ya, keep in mind the elevated casting platforms and flat decks.

I know that the biggest reason that the older jets were not used was the lack of efficiency. Even when I bought my last rig, I asked about an outboard jet, and was told that there were less efficient. Still, if the new ones are more efficient, and I know they turn better now, than I would be game on my next boat. One thing is for sure, I would have lost far fewer props over the last 10 years if I had a Jet.

[A9]

Inboard jets are about as LOUD of a motor as you can get...They do take up a lot of room too if your looking to have one push over 60 mph....

And I don't really see why your too worried about fishing around an outboard motor...Maybe I'm seeing something wrong then you are, but IMO I don't think the motor worries people enough to go to an inboard jet...Most guys will be up in the bow powering the trolling motor and don't really have to worry about the motor thats strapped onto the back of the boat...

[A9]

Yes it is true that a jet engine will only have about 60-70% of the efficiency of an outboard. Example: 90 prop turns into a 60 horse when you stick a jet on it...

And an aluminum hull is far lighter as anglinarcher pointed out. Most aluminum hulls are actually stronger then a glass hull too...

[Gisteppo]

Archer, the lightweight alu hulls that companies like Sylvan are putting out are relatively light. Lighter than a similarly sized 'glass hull until you start adding support for the interior structures required for higher speeds. Some companies have produced light alu bass boats, but they tend to dance around a bit and can deform due to the very high pressures exerted at speeds over 40. The comment about heavier alu boats is more about the hull plating required to be used in whitewater. Some boats are going over 1/8" thick plate, which is durable but has a big weight penalty. Fiberglass can be made light and has the tensile strength to go fast.

The other consideration in the glass/alu side is price. I can do a conversion of a jet boat hull (in fact I know where one is right now thats in great shape, with a pump and no motor for $600) with a marine crate 350 ($2k) extremely economically. To build from scratch or to rebuild from aluminum will cost considerably more. Depending on the desires of the owner, I could probably get 60mph, 2 livewells, better fuel economy, and nice tall casting decks for less than $10k.

Outboard jets are a bastard of pumps (I personally do own one though). They pick the water up vertically, spin it in a circle, then shoot it out the back. They are notoriously inefficient.

Inboard jets, even the older ones, are more efficient than a runabout prop above 30mph. This coupled with lower maintenance costs and less damage potential makes them a great candidate for a fishing platform.

As for noise levels, I can put the same mufflers on a jet that I can on a tournament ski boat. Quiet operation is a piece of cake.

I guess the fishing around the motor concern has to do with WHO more than what you fish. Often when in a tournament situation, the boat owner has the run of the bow, leaving his partner to fish around the motor and hope for a good cast. Its not the worst thing in the world, but when the difference between first and third a 6 ounces, losing one fish that might have put you over the line is going to mean something.

So two 20 gal tanks would work?

E

[Anglinarcher]

Archer, the lightweight alu hulls that companies like Sylvan are putting out are relatively light. Lighter than a similarly sized 'glass hull until you start adding support for the interior structures required for higher speeds. Some companies have produced light alu bass boats, but they tend to dance around a bit and can deform due to the very high pressures exerted at speeds over 40. The comment about heavier alu boats is more about the hull plating required to be used in whitewater. Some boats are going over 1/8" thick plate, which is durable but has a big weight penalty. Fiberglass can be made light and has the tensile strength to go fast.

The other consideration in the glass/alu side is price. I can do a conversion of a jet boat hull (in fact I know where one is right now thats in great shape, with a pump and no motor for $600) with a marine crate 350 ($2k) extremely economically. To build from scratch or to rebuild from aluminum will cost considerably more. Depending on the desires of the owner, I could probably get 60mph, 2 livewells, better fuel economy, and nice tall casting decks for less than $10k.

Outboard jets are a bastard of pumps (I personally do own one though). They pick the water up vertically, spin it in a circle, then shoot it out the back. They are notoriously inefficient.

Inboard jets, even the older ones, are more efficient than a runabout prop above 30mph. This coupled with lower maintenance costs and less damage potential makes them a great candidate for a fishing platform.

As for noise levels, I can put the same mufflers on a jet that I can on a tournament ski boat. Quiet operation is a piece of cake.

I guess the fishing around the motor concern has to do with WHO more than what you fish. Often when in a tournament situation, the boat owner has the run of the bow, leaving his partner to fish around the motor and hope for a good cast. Its not the worst thing in the world, but when the difference between first and third a 6 ounces, losing one fish that might have put you over the line is going to mean something.

So two 20 gal tanks would work?

E

I do believe that two 20 gal tanks would be adequate, but if this were to catch on with the big name Tournament Pros, they would want a 30 gal tank. If you go to a store, like Petco, that sells aquariums, look at a 20 gal. and imagine 5 bass, 4 lbs average, or 20 lbs of fish in it. It would be pretty tight. Now, for the rest of us, I don't think I could have put a 15 lb 5 fish limit together for some time.

Now I understand why they suggest I avoid the outboard jet. I guess that I'll need to stick with props, and busted props, for now.

Now, about aluminum boats and speed. I understand how the aluminums need to be so thick and heavy for whitewater, but I don't run whitewater for bass, or trout, or walleye, or...... so that is not an issue. I am not so sure about performance or deformation at speeds over 40. My Lund manufactured North Woods 18 slides along at 48 to 52 MPH, depending on altitude, and I sure don't notice any performance issues. I did notice that because of the light weight, waves caused the boat to porpoise or hop at speed, so I put a $50 Whale Tail on it and the problem was solved.

Price? no doubt about it, a used hull would save big money, and with the cost of metals, glass is a steal. So, in support of Glass, I often wish that my boat had MORE weight. I usually fill the live wells before I start to fish, even if I am not keeping fish. The weight makes the boat more stable when I am walking around.

So, if I were going to buy a new Bass Boat, I would want 18 to 20' long, around 80" wide, be able to slide along at 60 MPH, be able to turn well with the engine for running tight runs at just above plane speed (which should be about 20 mph) as well as docking. I would want a large and solid mounting location up front for the bow mount trolling unit, a battery storage for two 12 Volts for the trolling unit and a 12 Volt for the Engine. Because I don't just fish bass, I would like a mounting transom for placing a 10 hp kicker. let's see, two generous live wells, rod storage lockers for 8 rods, tackle storage lockers, safety equipment storage lockers, etc., etc.

This is a tall order, especially for a used hull, but.........if it were possible........oh what a boat.

[Gisteppo]

There might be the ability to go 30 in one tank and 20 in another, a good compromise.

Your Lund is a heavier gauge hull with some pretty serious internal bracing. Those sides are a little lighter than the bottom plating, and carry significantly less fore and aft framing than the bottom. I think thats a solid boat, but the consoles do eat some space. There is an old addage that any time you add trim tabs, whale tails, or other enhancement options, the boat was either not designed for its intended use or it is somehow loaded inappropriately. Generally Id say its a one size fits all hull. All boats are a compromise, and this makes an unaffordable custom design into a very affordable boat that only needs a minor adjustment (doel-fin) to iron out its behavior.

Your list is pretty impressive. It could be done rather easily, but the price goes up with the more detailed layout. Bracing and strength is cake with foam cored or wood cored construction. The electronics are easy. The storage gets a little complicated, and the performance is where the hard work comes in. The kicker motor is a challenge, but not overly difficult to handle.

Im ready to start if anyone is game! (Just have to finish the other boat! http://buildingnina.blogspot.com )

E

[Anglinarcher]

There might be the ability to go 30 in one tank and 20 in another, a good compromise.

Your Lund is a heavier gauge hull with some pretty serious internal bracing. Those sides are a little lighter than the bottom plating, and carry significantly less fore and aft framing than the bottom. I think thats a solid boat, but the consoles do eat some space. There is an old addage that any time you add trim tabs, whale tails, or other enhancement options, the boat was either not designed for its intended use or it is somehow loaded inappropriately. Generally Id say its a one size fits all hull. All boats are a compromise, and this makes an unaffordable custom design into a very affordable boat that only needs a minor adjustment (doel-fin) to iron out its behavior.

Your list is pretty impressive. It could be done rather easily, but the price goes up with the more detailed layout. Bracing and strength is cake with foam cored or wood cored construction. The electronics are easy. The storage gets a little complicated, and the performance is where the hard work comes in. The kicker motor is a challenge, but not overly difficult to handle.

Im ready to start if anyone is game! (Just have to finish the other boat! http://buildingnina.blogspot.com )

E

If I did not have 4 years left to pay on my current boat, I'd be contacting you. But...........

As for a compromise hull, ya, mass production. But, keep in mind, the boat I have only dances when the waves get taller and I am running with a lighter load. Still, if you had mentioned this boat idea of yours a couple of years ago...............

[Gisteppo]

Well Ill keep it in my hp pocket for a while unless someone else is interested. Ive got so many projects for myself in the hopper that Im really only starting other ones for pocket change and pizza money.

I also am considering building small rowing craft to replace the ubiquitous pontoon cats that everyone is fishing out of on non-motor lakes. Rowing boats of a million different types are 1000% better suited to that job than a pair of inner tubes strapped together with metal pipe.

E

[Anglinarcher]

Well Ill keep it in my hp pocket for a while unless someone else is interested. Ive got so many projects for myself in the hopper that Im really only starting other ones for pocket change and pizza money.

I also am considering building small rowing craft to replace the ubiquitous pontoon cats that everyone is fishing out of on non-motor lakes. Rowing boats of a million different types are 1000% better suited to that job than a pair of inner tubes strapped together with metal pipe.

E

True, but can they take white water, class III, and some short runs of IV? Mine does double duty and I need it light, strong, and able to be found by my widow after I make a stupid mistake on the Kooteni River. (LOL)

[A9]

I also am considering building small rowing craft to replace the ubiquitous pontoon cats that everyone is fishing out of on non-motor lakes. Rowing boats of a million different types are 1000% better suited to that job than a pair of inner tubes strapped together with metal pipe.
E

I don't think that row boats are even close to 1000% better IMO. You NEED a truck or a pickup to be able to either tow or put it in the bed of a pickup, or cartopper it on something with a rack on top of their rig. And some folks don't even have room in their garage to park a trailer. Folks with sedans are outta the question there. But a pontoon boat can fit in the trunk of most sedans when deflated. Plus they are a lot cheaper and can be well outfitted for fishermen...

[A9]

[Gisteppo]

Sam, the world has completely lost perspective on rowing craft. Rowing is how fish were caught for THOUSANDS of years before the motor. An astonishing number of craft are out there, and many are suited to specific fisheries. I personally take one of my little rowboats out on the little Spokane regularly, which is a small river. I load it in the back of my pickup (a Tacoma), I carry it myself to the launch (it weighs 45 lbs), and I have to row very slowly to not pull my crankbaits too fast to get good action.

Each boat is suited to the owner's needs. If they have a little car, then a cartopper that weighs less than 75 lbs is the answer. Mostly trout lakes? Go with a beamier dory type. Flyfishing? Square sterned canoe for electric motors, or a St Lawrence river skiff. Big non-motor lake? a 17' wherry like I built for my wife would be excellent.

To replace flatwater cats is cake. An 11' flatiron skiff will give excellent manners, be an easier, more responsive rower, have a higher level of safety (closed boats are always safer for the rower than open boats with framing), will be able to load in the back or on a roof rack, and include a price tag half of that of a cat.

For the whitewater sect, driftboats can be built starting at 8' long and a whopping 50 lbs. The bigger the water, the more flare in the sides, the higher the bow, and the wider the oarlocks.

One just has to consider what he wants to use the boat for, make the compromises, and the boat can be built to suit, right up to where you want the cupholders and the cooler.

E